Middleweight Tournament Round 2: Fitzsimmons vs Robinson

I have no problem with anyone picking Fitz here,but,
Fitz was bothered by Corbett's punches,in fact he was dropped by them and clung on to save himself.
I dont think Corbett fought like Robinson
.Servo retired rather than defend against Robinson ,who was his standout challenger.
Lamotta ,when he floored Robinson was a full fledged Middle 1601/2 to Ray's144 1/2..
Dempsey was a great fighter of his time but essentially a prize ring guy,most of his opponents are nonentities,and no one above ground has seen him fight,how do we know he was like Robinson?
You mentioned Robinson's chin,it was excellent only stopped once with heat exhaustion.
Fitz has the edge in power,bur Ray was a terrific puncher too,and he has the edge in everything else,imo,speed versatility,combinations.

Corbett had much more power than Ray and a far better chin? Very debatable.
Corbett was kod by a body shot,I think Ray's punch resistance stacks up vey well against him.

I dont see how you can dismiss SRR so easily.

 

Hard match to call. Here's the thing, Robinson fought to take the other guy out, which meant he left himself open to get hit. Robinson's best stuff was a welter, not middle.

Fitz was naturally bigger and stronger. If Robinson fights the way he does on film, I think he loses via TKO in one heck of a war.

 

What was Rays best weight? He was in his prime as a welterweight. He generally chose to fight most middleweights such as Lamotta at quite a bit below the middleweight limit. This could very easily see Ray Robinson fighting around 147 on fight night, with Fitzsimmons right on 160 or even more on fight night

Fair enough, but it doesnt mean anything with regards to their punching power. You would agree that both were pretty good in this department?

Interesting. To be honest i have never considered Ray Robinson to be anywhere near as strong as Tommy Hearns at middleweight though maybe i should rewatch some Tommy at middleweight. Maybe i have confused his punching ability with all out power, but i thought he scored okay on this front (and yes i meant Robinson not leonard).

okay, i am clutching at straws a bit here, but this is a tournament thread and not a thread in isolation, so theoretically the first round matches results should be considered. A tough first round match should also in theory make it harder to produce a second good performance in a row.

I disagree with this. Fitz does a lot of hooking and upper cutting, but his Jab is straight and hard and right hand is also straight. He doesnt wing punches like say a Foreman. Technically his punching is as good as anyones, and i think this is born out with his KO record. i dont even think it is debateable.

His defence is a little different. It is a touch unorthodox and probably resembles Muhammed Ali, more than Say Joe Louis, but it is still a tight defence. Fitz seems to know to get his hands up when in trouble, and most importantly to clinch when hurt or hit.

In fact, the clinch is going to cause Sugar Ray massive problems. He will have major problems firing off combinations, when Fitz clinches every time he is hit (as was the norm in his day). This upsets Sugars Rhythmn, massively and it something which Ray may not have experienced all that much of.

Yet magically, they got better as footage got better?

I have to be honest though, i struggle to see very much at all in the films. I dont think technique is anywhere near as poor as you make out, but maybe you just have younger eyes?

What difference does the size of the heavyweights have to do with his PSI rating of his punches? That is not really disputable. He hit roughly as hard as the guys i mentioned. (I think it is Janitor that has a list of the real measurements). You dont buy that his punching power is on the same level, but the cold hard facts say that it was. whether he beats those fighters or not is irrelevant, it is undisputed that he hit this hard.

I note that you think that Ray gets blown out by these guys also. So i ask you this question. You have suggested Fitz' shortcomings in technique and other areas. But if he legitimately hits as hard as these heavys, do you change your prediction on this fight and say he knocks out Ray, or do you think that Ray can still dance his way to victory. (And dont forget, it would seem difficult to stick with Ray in these circumstances without trying to suggest that Ray may very well have the chin to mention those heavyweights i mentioned).

If he had the power, why was his KO record against good middleweights so ordinary?

Well the Non pareil Jack Dempsey was a living legend of the sport. The Black Pearl Harris Martin was a colloured Champion, Peter Maher was actually a legitimate World Heavyweight Contender. In 1892, he fought about 10 or so contenders, and none of them made it out of the third round. In 1893 he knocked out the very tough Jim Hall, who had beaten him earlier in his career and KOd him in 4. He also KOd several other fighters in less than 4 rounds.

Actually, now that i look at it, after Fitz won the world title, no middleweight lasted more than 4 rounds with Fitz.

You dont think he could have beat the former light heavyweight Ezzard Charles? Fitz record at light heavy stands up to charles to, you know. Or what about just slightly before Sugars time. Do you think he could have beaten the Cinderella Man? His record isnt in the same league as as Fitz. If different eras breed different results, why hasnt anyone else ever done what Fitz did?

Well you seem to have ignored the Corbett fight, i am guessing you disagree with Fitz' weight here, but surely a heavyweight opponent is better than any middleweight Robinson faced. Then there is Choynski, who flattened Jack Johnson, Hall, etc. And the level of dominance that Fitz showed against other middleweights is just unbelievable.

Fight that often in general? He fought over 300 prizefights. At a rough count, as middleweight champion he averaged about 10 fights a year. How often did Ray fight as a middleweight again?

 

Whats all this about Fitz hitting as hard as Wlad on a PSI, what a load of bollox that 1 is

 

Fitz is commiting cardinal sins there and Robinson would make him pay for that and all his other mistakes BIG TIME

 

I see you mentioned the draw with Jose Basora,whilst Ray was still a welter.
You neglected to mention Ray kod him in 55 seconds when he had matured into a middleweight.

 

Yes. Pretty Ridiculous huh?

 

He's avoiding a jab-ish lead left there, not a left hook. He blocked hooks with his arms.

 

Agreed; it's kinda silly.

 

Leaning back is considered a legitimately useful tactic in the modern (albeit amateur) boxing manuals I've seen. It's just not recommended that you use it very frequently.

 

Its a cardinal sin and unless you dont want to get schooled by a world class boxer it shouldnt be done. You can make someone miss 1 shot but they only need to follow up to KD you. Thats why Hamed had so many KDs

If you're incredibly physically gifted like Ali/Hamed you may get away with it but sooner or later you'll meet someone who'll make you pay for it

Attempting such moves against the widely acknowledged best boxer of all time is going to see you punnished. And I'm not saying like some that SRR takes him out early, just expect a MAB-Hamed type of schooling

 

USA Boxing present it as a viable tactic, and include it as one potential technique in their instructional material, and it shows up in about half the boxing manuals on Amazon.com. I think it's more a matter of not overusing it.

There's also the question of whether Hamed still close to his best against Barrera, but that's another story.

 

I was taught never retreat in a straight line," get off the railtrack" in shorthand ,slip a jab,unless you are Ali or Jones.

 

But what if it turned out that it wasn't?

 

On Fitz's punching power. It is all guesswork how Fitz stacks up against later fighters such as Dempsey, Baer, or Louis.

It is not all guesswork on Jeffries, as the two men had common opponents:

Corbett------Jeffries (ko 23, ko 10)
Corbett------Fitz (ko 14)

Let's call this one even

Ruhlin--------Jeffries (Draw 20, ko 5)
Ruhlin--------Fitz (ko 6)

I would give the edge to Fitz, but no worse than even.

Choynski-----Jeffries (Draw 20)
Choynski-----Fitz (NC 5--Choynski took several knockdowns and was out cold on the floor when the police stepped in and stopped fight. Usually called a draw or NC, this was really a knockout by Fitz)

Edge Fitz

Sharkey----------Jeffries (w 20, w 25)
Sharkey----------Fitz (lost foul 8*, ko 2---*Sharkey was knocked out in the fight in which Fitz was dq'd by Wyatt Earp, who according to his friend Bat Masterson, did not understand the rules and made a bad call. Basically Fitz ko'd Sharkey twice)

Edge Fitz

I think Fitz has a big edge on Jeff when you look at these common opponents. If it wasn't for the two freaky decisions, he would be 5-0 with 5 ko's, Jeff 5-0-2 with 3 ko's.