Middleweight Tournament Round 2: Fitzsimmons vs Robinson

Yes. You think the last few pages have convinced me otherwise? Interesting no doubt, conclusive, nope. I still consider Fitz a true imitator, but apart from his style being completely awkward to Ray, I think Fitz would get bamboozled.

 

What happens when the older fighter is the Usain Bolt of punching power? Robinson had a tested chin, for sure, but he never fought anyone in the same league as Fitzsimmons as it relates to punching power. Middleweight Ray got hit- and Fitzsimmons has too much power and is accurate enough to make him pay dearly for it.

If he were wearing bigger gloves and were fighting within 15 rounds, I think we'd have seen Fitzsimmons hit even harder because there wouldn't have been the same issues of hand preservation to take into account.

 

I told you the 1890s HWs simply weren't HWs, you have no answer for that because they simply weren't real HWs. Many of Roy Jones light heavyweight opposition weighed more in the ring than Fitzsimmons heavyweight opposition. These are simply facts and you have no comeback on them

Here's some more facts, Fitzsimmons is far slower, he fights at a far slower pace, he has poor technique, he has a poor technical defense, he has no jab. All that we can visably see, why did he have success? I'd say because he competed in an era where boxing skills were undeveloped, a sport which at the time had a small talent pool, where training and nutrition were undeveloped

Why are you talking about a 38yo Robinsons struggles with Basilo? Surely irrelevant to a prime match up. Its hypocrazy at its finest when proponents of early 1900s HWs claim 'size isnt everything', and then go onto claim Fitz must be better because he beat bigger men

 

Did he have problems with his hands? If so, fair enough. If not then surely his dead-eyed precision and accuracy would see it better for him to be wearing lighter gloves? Surely his timing is going to see him land one or two shots (maybe the famed 'Solar Plezus' punch) and therefore he isn't going to need to worry about 'preserving his hands'.

And, as yu say, Ray was fairly hittable at MW.

 

Agree 100% :good

 

Fair points. :good

He didn't have prolific hand problems, but it is something that had to be taken into account given how much more common they were under the circumstances of the day; lighter gloves and extremely long fights would generally discourage going all-out in punching because of the risk of a broken hand. Bigger gloves were devised as much to protect fighters' hands as much as to protect the other fighter's head.

Still, given that his fights rarely past the opening rounds, let alone went past 15, I wouldn't say he held off too much.

 

It depends who you are talking about.

In Fitzsimmons era a heavyweight was anybody over 160 lbs but the other side of the coin was that you could be 160 lbs and end up fighting some 230 lb hulk for the title as was the case for Jem Mace.

Fitzsimmons fought heavyweights ranging from 160 to 270 lbs on his way up to the title and some of the guys who are listed as 0-0-0 or 1-1-0 on boxrec were commonwealth grade fighters. The Danny Williams or Kevin McBrides of their day.

Now when Bob Fitzsimmons fough Gus Ruhlin the weights were anounced as 155lbs Fitz 195 Ruhlin, but if you look into it it becomes apparent that both weights were fabrications. Reporters in their training camps and at ringside thought the weights were Fitzsimmons 165 and Ruhlin 205.

Now Fitzsimmons held his hands at his sides and taunted Ruhlin letting him take a number of clean chots at his chin. Later he knocked Ruhlin so cold that he fell over face first and didnt even put his arms out to stop himself.

That is what Robinson is up against.

 

Yes.

Fitzsimmons was plagued by hand problems throughout his career.

I have read a lot of contemporary newspaper articles and there is often a refference to it.

 

Are we playing make believe now? What evidence is this based on exactly?

Robinson is up against a man that is easy to hit and has slow hands that will have trouble landing himself, thats the essence of it, I'm not going to say Robinson KO1 but Fitz will get schooled

 

1. I am not going to play a ducks and drakes game over what a heavyweight is or isn't. I would just point out that Corbett, Sharkey, Maher, Ruhlin, Dunkhurst, and Jeffries were 180 or above which made them heavyweights in that era and for most of boxing history. The real point here is that these men would be twenty to forty pounds or more heavier than Robinson and about that much heavier than anyone Robinson defeated. And if you asked Sugar Ray Robinson, he would have said all these men were heavyweights, because they still would have been in his era.

2. Roy Jones--what has Roy Jones to do with this thread? Robinson was not fighting the men Roy Jones fought. All the major opponents Robinson actually defeated weighed 160 or less pounds on the day of the fight.

3. "Here are some facts"

Thanks for your opinions, but I still waiting for even one fact. I will just stick to pointing out that speed and technique are not exactly everything or Willie Pep would have been the lightweight and welterweight champion, but he never was.

4. I don't know who in the hell ever said size isn't important. It wasn't me. What I have said is that really big heavyweights prior to the sixties generally lost to the men, such as Dempsey, that you apparently do not consider heavyweights. That actually is a fact.

 

Robinson by KO early. Fitz kept his hands dangerously low (and I know it was a different era with different rules and techniques) and didn't really show the head movement to compensate against Ray's arsenal and superior technique (the gap between the two is immense). Under modern rules Fitz would get blitzed.

 

I think he did alright considering he's arguably the greatest featherweight of all time and top 10 p4p. Not too shabby wouldn't you say?

 

I was being sarcastic.

Also, Janitor says he was 'plagued by hand problems throughout his career' whilst you say what I have BOLDTYPED.

Do you know as much as you are letting on or assuming that I don't as I know Janitor to be a very reliable source when it comes to this era of boxing.

 

Unless, of course, knowing the fight is only for fifteen rounds, short for his era, he raises his gaurd. And can Robinson hold his gaurd up high and dance about the ring if the fight is 25 or more rounds. And, by the way, why do we assume modern rules? I guess perhaps the moderater is, but it seems to me this is stacking the deck a bit for Robinson.

 

He probably would've been the FW LW and WW champ of his day pre-war.