Miguel Ángel Berchelt Cervera vs. Óscar Rafael Valdez Fierro & Gabriel Flores Jr vs Jayson Velez RBR

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by CST80, Feb 20, 2021 at 2:28 PM.

  1. hoopsman

    hoopsman Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,186
    281
    Jul 24, 2005
    While I don't necessarily agree with several of your points, most notably that Colbert's power is "very underrated" or that beating Arboleda is any way shape or form on par with beating the consensus top rated fighter at 130lbs prior to the bout, I appreciate well thought out replies.

    How do we know Colbert has a great set of whiskers?? I certainly don't. Similarly, while I agree that Colbert isn't as easy to hit as Berchelt, I doubt Valdez will be as concerned about incoming fire as he was in the run up to the Berchelt fight.

    Moreover, we have no idea how Colbert will fare when the going gets really tough or whether his mettle/intestinal fortitude will be equal to the task if the bout becomes a real dog fight. I would submit that Valdez has already been through the crucible at arguably a higher level.

    Bottom line: Colbert, though talented, has more question marks.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021 at 11:25 AM
  2. IsaL

    IsaL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    44,870
    10,648
    Oct 7, 2006
    I don't see much improvement in Lomachenko. What improvement? In fact, he seems to be getting hit a hell of a lot more these days.

    Look buddy, don't get all butt hurt because I'm stating something that's rather obvious. When Lomachenko and Salido fought one was in the physical prime of his life, was 27 years old with about 300+ amateur fights under his belt and two gold medals having fought world class amateurs for years while the other was an aging battle worn close to retirement fighter who had a dozen losses. You know what happened in that fight? Lomachenko had never fought that style at world level in his life, that is why he couldn't win, and it wasn't until the OLD MAN gassed, and his years of abuse took a toll on him that the priem fresher Loma was able to do something. A Prime Salido would have possibly battered Loma.

    Do not act like Loma was a kid like Ryan Garcia, fighting a prime Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. It was literally a prime Gold medalist with tons of experience fighting a has been on his last feet.

    Since then Loma has not fought anyone remotely close to Salido's style. When they were both at SFW and Berchelt was calling him out I and others said that he would to some degree redeem himself if he took the challenge since Berchelt was a better, younger version of Salido.

    Berchelt is also not a small or regular SFW, weighing 146+ on fight night shows he's huge for that weight.

    I'm not saying Berchelt wins 100%, because I'm a very reasonable fight fan, all I'm saying is that it looks like Lomachenko opted another route rather than facing a style he was never prepared for in his 300+ fights. That style of fighting doesn't make it far in the amateurs, that is why Mexico doesn't have a strong amateur program, and that is why despite all of Loma's success he was never ready for the aggressive come forward, pressure style.

    As a fan of both Berchelt and Lomachenko, I was very disappointed this fight didn't materialized, and when I fight doesn't materialize, I always blame the money guy, unless the B side flat out refuses which wasn't the case here.
     
  3. hoopsman

    hoopsman Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,186
    281
    Jul 24, 2005
    There's nothing "obvious" about your assertion that Lomachenko "swerved" Berchelt. Or are we back in fantasy land again where things must be so if we repeat them often enough? Your entire "case," if it can be called such, rests on Berchelt "called him out." Show me where Team Berchelt made a serious negotiating effort to make that fight happen, because I don't see it. But hey, Berchelt "called him out" (as if fighters don't call guys out all the time whom they have no intention of fighting).

    Has it occurred to you that Lomachenko is perhaps getting hit more these days because he moved up in weight and his now fighting bigger, taller fighters?? You know--exactly the point I have been making?? He's fighting more imposing physical challenges than Berchelt presents or ever presented. You don't "swerve" one opponent, only to fight other opponents who are bigger, stronger, faster etc.

    Who said Berchelt is small for 130lbs? I said he's smaller--and he is--than the guys Loma has been fighting at 135lbs. The comparison is not between Berchelt and other SFWs, but between Berchelt and full-blown lightweights.

    Did Salido tire? Sure, but he was still throwing (including God-knows how many low blows) plenty of leather right until the final bell. The difference was, however, that Loma began to adjust to his approach/style in-fight. If you couldn't see that, I can't help you.

    And quit acting as if Berchelt's style is some kind of magic sauce. He's a volume punching, pressure fighter. Sosa employed an aggressive, come-forward pressure style as well and got destroyed by Lomachenko. Was Sosa as good or was his style identical to Berchelt's? Of course not, but it's hardly as if the two styles are entirely alien to one another. If anything, it's Berchelt who hasn't faced anyone with a style remotely similar to Loma's.

    Bottom line, however: Loma moved up in weight to fight bigger, faster, stronger, harder hitting opponents than Berchelt. Period. End of.

    But by all means.... keep pretending that Loma did that to avoid fighting a smaller, slower, softer punching opponent who's easy to hit.
     
    Greg Price99 likes this.
  4. IsaL

    IsaL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    44,870
    10,648
    Oct 7, 2006
    My case rests on Berchelt calling him out, Berchelt being the best opponent for him at 130, Lomachenko going through 130 without fighting a top opponent, and moving up to 135 and fighting opponents inferior to Berchelt.

    Why? Why not be the man at 130? Why not unify? Why move up to 135 to fight less accomplished and fading fighters when a great opponent was at 130 calling you out like four times?? Its not like Lomachenko was having a hard time making 130, was he?

    Berchelt and Loma have the same Promoter in the U.S. how the F can he have his people talk to Loma's people when they are the same people!? LOL All Berchelt can do is express interest, perhaps ask Top Rank to make it, but ultimately if Loma really wanted the fight he would push Top Rank to make it. Obviously Top Rank or Loma and his team did not want Berchelt because there is zero reason why this fight shouldn't of happened.

    Not sure why you're having a difficult time accepting that there is a good possibility that either Loma, his Team or Top Rank didn't want to risk Loma losing to Berchelt.

    Usually, bigger taller fighters are slower, but more powerful. Perhaps the reason he gets hit more is because he's fighting decent guys now, and still Berchelt would have been the highest quality opponent in all of Loma's career had he faced him at SFW.

    Either way, no one that Lomachenko has fought at 135 is as accomplished as Berchelt, maybe Linares, but Linares was just about done by the time Loma fought him. The guy has gotten his face cut up and KO how many times now? Still, a good win for Loma, possibly his best win, which says a lot about Loma's record. The two dudes he needed to fight he didn't.. Garcia and Berchelt.

    He may or may not be smaller weighing in at 146+ on fight night. It doesn't matter if Berchelt is 1 or 2 pounds lighter than the top LWs on fight night, at the time that Loma swerved him, he was a higher quality opponent than anyone at LW.

    Bro, Salido not only tired, but was OLD AF, had previously been used like a Piñata by JMM, and Mikey Garcia, and was on his last leg. He also clearly did not train properly for this fight considering he was a fat **** and couldn't make weight and was likely dehydrated AF ballooning up like 20 lbs. Damn, now that I think about it, Old Man Salido did exceptionally well when you consider he was old, near shot, battle worn, did not train properly, severely drained.

    A Prime Salido would have honestly beat Loma that night. I consider Berchelt more polished and consistent than Salido.

    Sosa? lol

    No comparison, Berchelt steamrolled over Sosa. Sosa is a B level fighter at very best. He may be one even two levels below Berchelt, but definitely not at Berchelt's level.

    That's like saying Berchelt has no problems beating movers because he KTFO Jonathan Barros. lol


    The bottom line is that you're a fan boy that cannot accept even the slightest possible criticism of your hero.
     
  5. hoopsman

    hoopsman Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,186
    281
    Jul 24, 2005
    Read much?? I specifically said that Sosa was not as good as Berchelt. I merely noted that their aggressive, come forward styles were certainly not alien to one another, a concept you seem to believe given your ridiculous assertion that Loma had never fought anyone "remotely" similar in style to Berchelt.

    You're right. Your case does not rest solely on "Berchelt called him out." It also rests on the utterly unfounded supposition-a supposition, I might add, that you haven't backed up with anything other than your biased interpretation of events-- that the reason the fight did not happen was because Loma "swerved him."

    Your decision to put the onus of the fight not happening on Lomachenko is an entirely subjective opinion not substantiated by anything. Are you in Berchelt's camp? Do you know for a fact that he really wanted the fight instead of merely running his mouth and posturing? The answer is-- you don't. Instead, you're merely presuming he did because it supports your agenda. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, patently biased as it may be, but don't confuse opinions with fact because that bullsh*t doesn't work here, I'm afraid.

    GRJ is a better win than anything on Berchelt's resume. Moreover, I notice you have conveniently forgotten Nicholas Walters, whom many believed was the most dangerous fighter at 130lbs when he fought Lomachenko. Prior to the Lomachenko fight, Walters would have been considered the favorite in any potential match-up with Berchelt.

    Similarly, in terms of pure talent, I don't rate Berchelt all that much higher than either Pedraza or Linares, both of whom Lomachenko beat at 135lbs. If anything, both Pedraza and Linares are faster than Berchelt, and Linares is a considerably better boxer. And I rate Berchelt considerably lower than Lopez. You apparently believe that Berchelt is some kind of boogeyman. I don't and neither did Valdez, who absolutely pushed his **** in last Saturday. Further, there isn't anyone on Berchelt's resume that Lomachenko wouldn't have beaten.

    So to review: Loma has beaten better fighters than Berchelt, beaten fighters with similar approaches, and fought bigger, faster, stronger, harder -hitting fighters. But you're probably right: Loma "swerved" Berchelt because he's Mexican, a "pressure fighter," and most importantly here because you said so.

    Oh and my boxing hero is Roberto Duran, bro. (And I buy your bullsh*t that you're a Loma fan as much as I believe in the Easter Bunny)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021 at 10:55 AM
  6. Manfred

    Manfred Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    19,480
    3,420
    May 22, 2011

    I hear you but you gotta ask yourself this, what real skills were on display by Berchelt. I never witnessed any superb boxing skills that made him stand out. He was merely a warrior of attrition. That is how he won his fights. Valdez displayed real boxing skills along with power and that is what gave him the victory. However, if you look at his other two notable wins, they came by decisions. The reason for that I feel is because they possess boxing skills. Now, I rate Colbert's mobility, arsenal of punches, speed and ring generalship much better than Quigs or Marriaga. He has an educated jab and the reach over Oscar. He will not be a cakewalk for Valdez and I do believe that he may indeed beat Valdez.
     
    CST80 likes this.
  7. hoopsman

    hoopsman Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,186
    281
    Jul 24, 2005
    Reasonable, well considered analysis.

    I can't honestly say I disagree with any of it.

    Good stuff, man!
     
  8. hoopsman

    hoopsman Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,186
    281
    Jul 24, 2005
    Perhaps you ought to consider the following exchange Dougie Fischer of Ring Magazine had a with a fan today about Berchelt:

    Fan--Berchelt really hadn’t fought anyone who could box and move and provide angles the way Valdez did, and until he did we didn’t have a complete picture of him.

    Fischer-- Berchelt and his management gave us a hint that they weren’t interested in world-class boxers when Jamel Herring outpointed Masayuki Ito for the WBO 130-pound belt. Prior to the fight, Berchelt (who was ringside) had talked a lot about wanting to unify titles. As soon as Herring’s hand was raised, Berchelt lost interest in that goal. He switched his attention to Valdez, who he or his management likely viewed to be in the same physical boat as former foes Francisco Vargas, Takashi Miura, Mickey Roman and Jason Sosa, which is BATTLE WORN.


    Here's the link:
    This content is protected


    So, according to Fischer--- a well respected, well connected, eminently more credible and qualified source than you-- Berchelt likely ducked Herring in order avoid fighting a "world class boxer."

    But we're to accept your version of events that Berchelt really wanted to fight THE BEST PURE BOXER IN THE WEIGHT CLASS at the time, but that Lomachenko "swerved him"?

    I don't think so.
     
  9. IsaL

    IsaL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    44,870
    10,648
    Oct 7, 2006
    First of all the Valdez was a more lucrative opponent.

    Secondly, it doesn't change the fact that Loma had one loss by the time he was a titlist at 130. That loss came at the hands of a old shopworn, past his prime unmotivated Salido who couldn't even breathe by round 8. I'm sure they didn't want to take their chances against Berchelt.