Okay, so Tyson was losing to a 6 to 1 underdog 40 to 36 on two cards and 39 to 36 on the 3rd at the time of the stoppage. As Glass City Cobra pointed out in an earlier post, overcoming a deficit on the scorecards against a 7 to 1 underdog pales in comparison to say Leonard vs Hearns 1. Please forgive me for not worshipping your idol. Although his fistic achievements, of which there were many, namely becoming the youngest HWT champion in history, will stand the test of time, your idol still carries the stigma of getting his @55 kicked from pillar to post by a 42 to 1 underdog. On occasion, he also has to relive and explain why he acted like a DOG during the 2nd Holyfield fight and prior to his drubbing against The Pugilist Specialist. I’m fully aware of your excuses and quickness to point out that The Pugilist Specialist beat up a washed up version of your idol. Blah, blah, blah, just save it. Your idol aka the character lacking phony (Atlas’s words) respects his fans so much that he selfishly asked them to pony up $54.95 for the “privilege” of watching him talk a good game in the buildup, only to have The Pugilist Specialist dismissively toy with his washed up @55 on fight night. Based on your idol’s pathetic performance, it’s funny to recall how security members made a human barrier, from corner to corner, to keep the DOG and his Master apart during the prefight introductions.
Oh please, do not rewrite rules that have been used against you. If your chinny master can get credit for beating fighters in rematches that he should have comfortably beaten the first time around, then Tyson deserves credit for over coming adversity and coming back from the brink of defeat in his boxing matches regardless of the ratings of the opponent. That is over coming Adversity just like you originally defined early on in this thread so therefore the thread has been concluded and the conclusion is that Tyson did overcome Adversity and won matches from the brink of defeat. Please forgive us for not drooling over your chinny girl, atleast Tyson never got starked by one shot to the face by D level fighters like an over protected girl who had never been in a bar/street fight. He doesn't have to explain anything regarding the Holyfield fight, the fights in Hindsight made both fighters famous and both have profited immensely from the aftermath. The rematch never took place and Tyson did not go through with the rematch therefore this point is moot. It was Lewis who went to court to drag Tyson into a second rematch.
Since I believe ALL fighters including the most hopeless journeymen have dealt with adversity at one time or another just to be able to step into the squared circle. Since this discussion involves a great and well regarded fighter (Tyson), I interpret adversity in two ways. Even though I know you know what I’m talking about, I realize your reading comprehension suffers when you’re emotionally distraught, I spell it out for you. 1. Avenging a defeat 2. Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat against an EQUAL or GREATER or ACCOMPLISHED fighter. 2.a. Ruddock and Tillis do not meet this criteria. 2.b. Conn, Walcott, Johansson, Frazier, Norton, and Vitali meet this criteria. You know why? Because unlike Tillis and Ruddock, who have to pay for a general admission ticket to the IBHOF, they are all enshrined members. Guess what else each of their conquerors has in common? All but one of them (Marciano) also meet criteria 1 above. Unfortunately, your idol does not meet any of the criteria above. As a result, me and MANY other boxing fans hold this shortcoming against Tyson when determining his standing against the greats. As I said before there are worse people to cheer for than a two time Olympian, 1988 gold medalist, all blemishes avenged, HOFer who carries himself like a gentlemen. Meanwhile, Teddy Atlas nearly murdered your idol for molesting an 11 year old girl. After having his punk card pulled by the significantly smaller Atlas, Tyson still acted like the rules didnt apply to him. He BRAGGED about beating a woman (Givens). I remember he said he “hit her with the hardest punch he ever threw and she must’ve bounced off of every wall in the room.” That’s okay, Douglas the 42 to 1 underdog gave him some fistic karma in the form of a 10 round thrashing. Next, he went to prison for raping Desiree Washington. Although I have my doubts about her sincerity, the fact of the matter is that your idol is a convicted felon. So yeah, I’ll take being a fan of The Pugilist Specialist over your idol any day of the week. Plus “my fighter” kicked “your fighter’s” @55. Unfortunately, your washed up idol continued to surround himself with Yes Men, who knew how to exploit a meal ticket when they saw one, and failed to learn that bad things happen when you refuse to accept accountability for your actions. Tyson thought so little of his Stans that he went through the motions and ended up suffering embarrassing losses to Danny Williams and Kevin McBride. Answer this question. Have you ever boxed, wrestled, or competed in any type of martial art?
So from saying Tyson never dealt with Adversity ever to "All fighters including hopeless journeymen have deal with adversity at some time or another", i can sense a convenient backtracking and moulding the criteria to keep the hate filled agenda going forward. This rule is not cast set in stone. People when they view Tyson will realize it was Douglas who ran away from the rematch and that he was past his prime and shot when he ended up meeting his main competitors at the end of his career. You have conveniently changed your definition and included "EQUAL/GREATER/ACCOMPLISHED fighter" after you were caught lying that Tyson never ever battled adversity in a fight. I can assure you that you and the "many" other boxing fans are a very minute minuscle compared the vast majority of millions who remember the Tyson from 1985-88. Oh please. A gentleman does not make remarks at the end of a fight "Look at the state of his face", "I am much tougher than he is", "What are you talking about Larry?", "Bring on his brother over for Lunch". A gentleman does not say "Bring on your mother and your sister". A Gentleman does not attack another person's personal life and religious faith which he did vis a vis Holyfield. A Gentleman does not keep mocking and attacking a guy who he lost to in a boxing match i.e. Rahman. A Gentleman does not keep making condescending remarks about a fighter during his era when he is now suffering from brain damage. A Gentleman does not keep putting down fighters who he fought with during his time. I never defended Tyson for the personal life choices he made. He can be criticized for it. Let's not make things black and white about women. I don't approve of hitting women as a man but Givens was a blood sucking gold digger and she was not an innocent party in the marriage either. She played a vital role in getting Mike to cut off from Bill Clayton and go with Don King. The merits of that case are still out in the open and the overwhelming evidence points to the fact that the jury over looked so many key evidences. Another theory is that Don King wanted Tyson to be in jail as the Tyson was deliberating breaking up with him and signing up with another manager. Even Floyd is a convicted felon who went to jail. Sure, i can see you like chinny girls When your idol was in his prime or 1-2 years away from his prime while the other guy was 10-14 years away from his prime. No arguments there. Yes, i do boxing training in the gym.
Everyone deals with adversity regardless of their chosen profession. As humans it’s a fact of life. It’s just that in judging a fighter against adversity, we as fans hold them to a higher standard. My definition is not law, but many boxing historians use the same criteria. This is why they tend to rank HWTs into the following tiers: 1. Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano 2. Holmes, Dempsey, Foreman, Frazier 3. Liston, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis There are levels to this and Tyson does not meet the criteria of avenging a defeat or snatching victory from the jaws of defeat against EQUAL/GREATER/ACCOMPLISHED fighter’s. So tell me again, when did Tillis and Ruddock ever hold a world title? I already told you why Douglas did not grant a rematch to Tyson the SORE LOSER. As someone who does boxing training in a gym, do you really believe Douglas was scared of Tyson AFTER he already kicked his @55 for 10 rounds? Now if he had caught Tyson with a lucky shot early in the fight, you might have some credibility. Especially since Tyson could psychologically recover using the rationalization that Douglas landed a lucky punch. This is one of the things that makes Louis an ATG. Schmeling “saw something” before the first fight, exploited the heck out it with his right hand and punished Louis for 12 rounds. Unlike your idol, Louis demonstrated what Atlas calls character to overcome adversity by destroying Schmeling in the rematch. Like I said in an earlier post. Lewis got caught by a lucky punch, made a complete psychological recovery, and then did whatever it took to get the rematches. On the other hand, your idol got his @55 kicked by a 42 to 1 underdog acted like a SORE LOSER and convinced Douglas to say screw you and serve the belts up to Tyson’s Master (Holyfield) on a silver platter, in a dreadful performance. In the second half of your idol’s career, he got his @55 kicked in 11 rounds by Holyfield who opened as a 25 to 1 underdog. Understandably, he had a hard time psychologically recovering from the first fight and decided to behave like a DOG as soon as he realized he was on his way to another loss. Boxing is 90% mental. If an opponent beats you from pillar to post before ending the fight by T/KO, it’s hard to make a complete psychological recovery. This is especially true of fighters who rely on intimidation. A few examples that come to mind are Liston, Young Foreman, Mugabi, and Tyson. No argument about the evil Givens and questionable Washington. I’ve never understood why celebrities, namely athletes and musicians, fall so hard for fast, easy women. I like The Pugilist Specialist and I can see you like an old lady mugging, child molesting, woman beating, convicted ******. Enjoy that.
No not necessarily, not all humans can deal with Adversity. It’s just that in judging a fighter against adversity, we as fans hold them to a higher standard. My definition is not law, but many boxing historians use the same criteria. This is why they tend to rank HWTs into the following tiers: 1. Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano 2. Holmes, Dempsey, Foreman, Frazier 3. Liston, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis There are levels to this and Tyson does not meet the criteria of avenging a defeat or snatching victory from the jaws of defeat against EQUAL/GREATER/ACCOMPLISHED fighter’s. So tell me again, when did Tillis and Ruddock ever hold a world title? [/QUOTE] First of all, if a fighter 99% of the times does not face Adversity then it should not be held against him. Secondly when it has been proven to you that Tyson did indeed battle adversity in both his personal and boxing life, you magically raised your so called standards in your desperation to not acknowledge that Tyson did indeed face adversity in his boxing career and that the thread has failed. Fact is Douglas ran away from the re-match. You can make all the theories in the world but Douglas ran away from the rematch because he knew he would not get lucky again. Douglas got exposed in the very next fight. Rahman was no Schmeling, Rahman was a D grade ordinary fighter and there was no research required into how to beat Rahman. The entire world knew that Lewis was the better fighter than Rahman. But it was inexcusable for a fighter to go down like an over protected girl from one big shot to the face in a fight where he is not taken any punishment. That was no lucky punch. Lewis doesn't deserve any credit for doing in a re-match what he ought to have done in the first fight. The fact that Lewis was scared to take out a disoriented Mccall is also very telling. Same thing that Lenni did, took Rahman to court to get a rematch. Tyson and King apply through the proper channels to get the 13 second controversy reviewed and then decide to withdraw their challenge given the public outcry. 2 different set of rules being applied by you. Tyson and King didn't convince Douglas to do anything, Douglas coming in over weight versus Holyfield was his own fault. Everyone knows Tyson was ring rusty past his prime here whereas Holyfield was very active, roided and an experienced dirty fighter, head putter and Tyson naturally lost it given the blatancy with Holyfield was getting away with cheating tactics which the referee was turning a blind eye too. I can assure you that Tyson was never scared of Douglas, it was Douglas who chose to run away. Tyson still took the Holyfield rematch and backed himself to turn it around. His decision to not rematch Lewis was a practical one where he knew he was in no condition to fight someone like Lewis in his prime while he himself was shot and didn't want to unnecessarily get beat up again. I can assure you if you received $100 million tommorow, you will all sorts of people throwing themselves at you in record time. Mike Tyson the boxer and Mike Tyson the person are 2 different things.
