Mike Tyson and adversity

I already acknowledged Tyson is the most famous former heavyweight champion who’s still living. I also acknowledge that most fighters who ever lived would have loved to win the majority of their fights prior to the opening bell, through intimidation. That is not what I hold against Tyson.

Let me repeat, I hold it against Tyson that he NEVER snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.

Since you like to discredit Lewis, allow me to come to his defense. Lewis’s career is a testament to his ability to overcome adversity. Here’s a few examples:

Tyrell Biggs beat Lewis by decision in the 1984 Olympics. Lewis won by KO3 in the pro ranks.

Lewis lost 2 fights as a professional and had one dubious draw with Holyfield. He avenged all 3 setbacks and removed all doubt as to who was the superior fighter. He beat Vitali fair and square. Although he may have been lucky to win, the fact is that he did.

As an aside, I feel like Lewis’s haters unfairly gave him flak due to the fact that he carried himself in an aristocratic manner and spoke with a British accent. Given Lewis’s accomplishments, which includes all blemishes avenged, something Tyson never achieved, I believe his haters would view him differently if he was from “Any Hood, USA.”

Lewis doesn’t have to explain himself to anybody. He avenged all blemishes AND he seems comfortable with his place in the sport’s history.

Meanwhile, Tyson’s most ardent supporters, which I consider you to be one of, feel it is their duty to defend his MYSTIQUE at all costs, no matter how rational the opposing argument is. Notice I capitalized MYSTIQUE because his ATG peers (Holyfield and Lewis) saw right through him and beat him convincingly.

Holyfield beats Tyson 100 of 100 times.
A FOCUSED Lewis beats Tyson every time as well.

 

Good to know. Larry Holmes would kill to have the fame of Ali and Tyson, everyone can make out from his speeches how bitter he is he never got the recognition and fame he deserved because of Ali and later Tyson. From Lewis's interviews to the present day, it is clear he feels the way vis a vis Tyson

You can hold that against him for as long as you want but everyone knows that Tyson's major career defining losses came when he was way past his best, he knows that, vast majority of boxing fans know that and will always bring this up and therefore it has no real bearing on Tyson's reputation or legacy.

Tyson lost to Biggs in the Amatuer trials, Tyson lost to Tillman in the Amateurs. Are you going to give him credit for over coming adversity and beating the 2 of them as pros? Or in your selective bias you will regard that as Tyson not over coming Adversity but Lewis overcoming adversity?

Lewis was in his prime against Holyfield while Holyfield was way past his prime. To be honest that version of Lewis should have done much better against that version of Evander and should have been more aggressive against him. All boxing fans will truly understand this.

He beat Vitali due to a cut caused by the strapping of his glove and then like a coward he refused to give him the rematch and in public in the post fight interview he commented "He was my mandatory, i gave him a chance to fight but i am not fighting him again", contrast this with Tyson during the post fight interview after the Ruddock 1 fight "I would love to have another fight with him, i would love to". Go figure who is showing a true warrior attitude.

Lewis is too boring an individual to follow, sure he may have an aristocratic and arrogant and disrespectful attitude towards all his opponents but i can assure you his unpopularity has nothing to do with his British accent, Manny Pacquiao touched the hearts of countless American's even though he can't speak English fluently and the American's aren't orgasming over Wilder even though he is from the US.

A guy who is comfortable with his place in Sporting history does not have to constantly each and every fight of his on social media, comment on them and justify victories, losses, justifying his victory over shot versions of Holyfield, Tyson, mocking Rahman, justifying the Vitali result and not rematching vitali each and every year You do not see the likes of Holyfield and Tyson commenting on each and every fight or justifying/explaining losses. These are not the signs or actions of a person who is comfortable with his place in history.

Holyfield has a lot of respect and love for Tyson and has the decency to acknowledge that he was very lucky to fight Tyson when he was a beatable fighter.

I loved how you highlighted the word FOCUSED to justify the losses that Lewis had in his career under the pre-text of he wasn't FOCUSED for those fights whereas the same argument can be made for Tyson. I am sorry but a guy who got chinned like an over protected girl twice by D level fighter is not going to beat a prime Mike Tyson especially when a prime version of Lewis took almost 9 rounds to dispatch a shot to **** version of Tyson that the likes of Danny Williams and Mcbride beat in much quicker fashion.

 

I'm extremely comfortable with what i post about Tyson. Sometimes i have to take a harsher stance than my norm to balance out guys like yourself, mostly because Unforgiven isn't here and many others simply can't be bothered anymore.

Your definition of "honest" Tyson criticism and mine will be at very different ends of the spectrum. "Honest could be thrown straight back at you given some of your own claims per Tyson not the least being you reckon he can beat any fighter in history. This is far from borne out by real world results.

 

Great post.

 

Tyson has just one single stoppage in his entire career past the 7th round. This was just prior to beating Berbick against a hugely outclassed opponent in Ribalta.

He has 2 TKO's in the 7th. One was an extremely controversial stoppage vs Ruddock and the other was against Biggs who he stated he carried in order to inflict more punishment.

44 ko's and 1 came after the 7th, 2 actually in the 7th.

I will absolutely give big credit that the vast majority weren't good enough to get past the initial onslaught and were belted out. He's a knockout machine. If however you had the tools and substance to get into those latter rounds you invariably heard the final bell. This is borne out in real world results.

I and i'm sure plenty of others take this into account when looking at fantasy match ups. Once you start matching him up against great fighters (Tyson never ever beat a great fighter, but he's not alone) we need to factor in such points as quite a few of these guys aren't going to be blown out of the ring early. This is pure common sense.

The bottom line is that when some of these ATG fighters get past the initial onslaught their chances are going to improve noticeably.

 

I agree with your opinion of Larry Holmes. It’s a shame that he feels slighted by coming along after aali and before Tyson. Coincidentally, Holmes was a favorite of mine during his peak.

Lewis doesn’t disparage Tyson and/or Rahman out of unfounded spite. You know as well as I do that they deserve his dismissal of them as a result of their venomous actions towards Lewis prior to their respective fights. Rahman for talking mad 5hi+ prior to the rematch and Tyson for threatening to eat Lewis’s kids AND biting his leg during the melee that he instigated.

Tyson’s reputation is that of a bully and a dog. Again, he never snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. I keep repeating this point, since I know it hurts you to read it and not be able to dispute this FACT. By the way, it does negatively impact Tyson’s legacy. At least it does in mine and lots of other fans’ eyes.

Regarding Biggs and Tillman, each of whom Tyson beat in the paid ranks, let me clarify the point I made with Lewis. See, Lewis made the Olympics in 84 and 88. In 84 Biggs eliminated him. He persevered and in 88 came home with gold, beating Riddick Bowe by TKO2 in the final. Tyson never made the Olympic team.

I know you’ll try to discredit the significance of being an Olympic gold medalist, so I’ll help you out. Patterson, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis, and Wlad all won Olympic gold. Each of them are/will be in the IBHOF. Heavyweight Olympic gold pedigree only began to lose significance once Audley Harrison came along. AJ is on his way to changing this back to tradition.

Lewis cleared up all blemishes on his record. Tyson has 6 unavenged losses. Okay, Douglas ran from him and robbed Tyson of the chance to redeem himself. What about Holyfield though? He opened as a 25-1 underdog, entered the ring as a 5-1 underdog AND thoroughly kicked Tyson’s @55.

Allow me to turn the tables on you again. You knock Lewis for beating an older Holyfield, yet you completely ignore that Tyson got his @55 kicked by a 5-1 underdog that many people feared the worst for prior to the fight, due to his heart condition. Tyson should have done way better, right? Most objective fans would argue that the version of Holyfield that Lewis BEAT was more formidable than the ailing heart version of Holyfield that Tyson LOST to.

Holyfield granted Tyson a rematch AND was on his way to beating him again before Tyson lost it and bit his ear. Again, I’m sure Tyson hates having to explain this incident. It sounds like you hate when people bring this up.

I already acknowledged Lewis may have gotten lucky against Vitali. This still does not change the fact that he still WON the fight, in this case doing something Tyson never did. Say it with me...snatching victory from he jaws of defeat.

Although you discredit Lewis for not granting Vitali a rematch. You should put Your Tyson pom-poms down for a moment and recognize that Lewis immediately retired after the fight and never wavered on his decision. Now if he had and came back to fight anyone other than Vitali, I’d stand next to you in the Lewis hater club. Fact of the matter is that he successfully turned back Vitali’s challenge, wisely knew when to fold ‘em vice hold ‘em, and stayed retired. Nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

Holyfield is just being a gentleman when it comes to his feelings about Tyson. Unlike Tyson, Holyfield was not a bully and he was not a dog. He eagerly accepted to defend his title against the much bigger and sublimely skilled Riddick Bowe AND he put up a hell of a fight the first time, won the rematch, and nearly scored a KO in he rubber match before succumbing to the better (bigger) man. When did Tyson ever do this. Holyfield 2 (one by TKO, one by DQ), Tyson 0.

I highlighted the word FOCUSED because I acknowledge that prime Tyson has a chance to beat an unfocused Lewis. A FOCUSED Lewis beats any version of Tyson. Although Lewis was the champion when he beat Tyson, he was already PAST his prime. In fact Tyson was the second to last fight of his career. At the same time, Tyson fought 3 more times after his loss to Lewis. One more thing, Lewis is actually older than Tyson.

Although we disagree on Tyson and Lewis, it’s a pleasure chatting with you. I think you’re a bit biased in your love for Tyson and hate for Lewis, but there’s no disputing your knowledge of the sport.

Merry Christmas!

 

You and I see Tyson the same way. Great post and good work on breaking down his record with FACTS.

 

Man, Tyson would bite y ear after that one. GREAT post again! Of course the thuguglies will have to look up mystique.

 

Also, Merry Christmas since the Merry Christmas thread keeps being taken down.

 

:/
Great stuff and beautiful. Good prose.

 

Good to know, i hope you will be impartial enough to acknowledge that a prime Holmes will beat a prime Lewis.

Let me correct you. Lewis after the first Rahman fight was over, instigated Rahman and provoked him constantly in joint press conferences and media interviews by commenting "That was a lucky punch Rahman, don't you agree?" and it was only natural for Rahman to eventually respond to Lewis in kind when Lewis kept on going on and on about it. Lewis to this day keeps mocking Rahman in various interviews and chats which is pretty poor because the guy humiliated him and knocked him out fair and square and Lennox Lewis should never have lost to a mediocre fighter in such a chinny manner in the first place.

As far as Tyson is concerned, Lewis keeps on commenting on Tyson being a "one dimensional fighter, Tyson fighting mostly bums during his prime" whereas the funny thing is that a lot of Lewis's resume is filled with Tyson left overs and Tyson beat much better, fresher and more dangerous versions of common opponents, so either he needs to acknowledge that his own resume is filled with bums or that Tyson beat decent solid fighters during his prime from 1985-88 where he had many different dimensions and that the one major Tyson dimension was just so lethal that 99% of boxers just could not withstand it.

I can assure you that you and some other fans are in a very small minute insignificant portion of most boxing fans around the world but Tyson has millions of followers compared to a mere footnote in Boxing history like Lennox Lewis for a reason i.e. Tyson has left a powerful impression on the sport and Lewis on the other hand will never ever be remembered as a boxer in the manner that Tyson is. There is nothing wrong with being a terrorizing bully, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a fighter against the vast majority of opponents **** themselves way before entering the ring with. This is what makes a fighter terrorizing and legendary and inspires new generation of kids to take up the sport. As far as Tyson never ever snatching victory from the Jaws of defeat i will answer below with examples.

Tyson had already turned professional in 1985 and therefore the olympics were all in the past. He was already setting sights on the biggest prize in boxing i.e. being the heavy weight champion of the world and he became the youngest heavyweight champion of the world and the record is still in tact and is unlikely to be broken by anyone anytime soon given how much time it now takes boxers to develop their games.

I was just pinpointing the bias in your statement and can see that you are now trying to downplay Tyson avenging his Olympic losses to Tillman and Biggs by trying to take the position that Tyson not making the Olympics team (when competition for American Olympic positions was the most competitive at the time and even Holyfield did not make the Olympic team) is a negative on his record when he had bigger ambitions to cater too i.e. to become the Heavyweight Champion of the world.

Actually Lewis did not even have the guts to take Mccall out in the rematch where the guy was not even there mentally, he was hessitant to engage him and fight like a big man. So that is not really what you call avenging a defeat unlike what he did to Rahman "in my opinion and some other fans" and as far as the Rahman re-match is concerned, it is not like Lewis rematched a George Foreman, Joe Frazier or Mohammad Ali, this was not a rematch for a close competitive first fight, this was a rematch for a humiliating loss which should never have happened in the first place so Lewis by doing what he should have done in the first place did not perform a Hall of Fame Act by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Everyone knows that Tyson after prison was not the same fighter and his timing, punch accuracy, speed, legs, stamina were badly eroded due to 4 years of no sparring, boxing training in prison whereas Holyfield had been way more active than Tyson from 1991 to 1995 with numerous fights and Tyson's lack of ring activity eventually caught up with him as the fight went on. And in any case Tyson's performances in his come back fights were not very impressive either against Mcneeley, Mathis Jr.

When Holyfield fought Tyson he was 34 years old, When Holyfield fought Lewis he was 37 years old with numerous wars behind him so no most objective fans will agree the Holyfield who fought Lewis was more faded versus the one who fought Tyson and that Lewis who was in the peak of his career fought extremely conservatively cautiously and was not aggressive enough against a badly faded fighter. Holyfield lost 80-90% of his subsequent fights after his 2 fights with Lewis which should put those 2 fights in perspective.

Tyson lost the last 3 of his 4 fights of his career and surely no sane boxing fan, Tyson hater should hold it against him for not rematching his losses at the *** end of his career when he was fighting desperately for money and nothing else. Holyfield has lost many fights at the end of his career, should we hold it against him for not rematching those defeats as well.

 

I know you will dismiss Tyson's victory over Botha as a circus but the reality was that he was behind on the scorecards of all the 5 rounds before he got that punch in. In the Razor Ruddock rematch fight he was being battered and eventually won the fight 7-5 or 8-4 and in one the rounds in round 10 or 11 Razor Ruddock smashed him with 4-5 consecutive power punches where it appeared he was going but he stood still. Tyson barely scrapped by the Tillis fight 6-4 where some could argue the result was 5-5 or even in Tillis's favor but the knock down of Tillis may have swayed the judges towards Tyson but this was another fight Tyson could easily have lost.

I know you will dismiss these fights and not give Tyson any credit for WINNING these fights because that is what counts right at the end of the day the WIN in your books? So to say Tyson never ever snatched a victory from the brink of potential defeat is absolute dishonesty and lacking in objectivity and even if that is the case, is it wrong to knock down a fighter who 99% of the times is just so good where he knocks down his opponent in the early rounds where the opponent is at his most dangerous and freshest in the fight? Maybe Floyd Mayweather's 50-0 record is garbage as well because he never ever rescued himself or never had to win a fight from the jaws of defeat?

As far as Lewis is concerned, when he claims he had no knowledge of who Vitali was, i can assure you that he is blatantly lying, i can pull up an interview he did in 2002 after the Tyson victory where he mentions both Wladimir and Vitali by their name, Lewis was also in negotiations with Vitali for a potential fight as early as Jan 2003 so for him to say he had no clue who Vitali was is absolute rubbish and i can prove it and their eventual bout came about at the very last 2 week notice (which was same for both fighters).

Lewis was contracted to HBO to fight 2-3 more fights and at the end of 2002/03 he in a few interviews mentioned that he will honor his commitment to HBO and then decide on his future and that even though he has achieved everything in boxing, he still had a few good fights left in him. So the very fact that Lewis decided to walk away from the sport after the highly competitive Vitali fight where he in the post fight interview said "He was my mandatory, i gave him a chance to fight, but i am not going to fight him again", whereas Tyson after the first Ruddock bout in the post fight interview commented "I would love to have another fight with him, i would absolutely love too". You will never hear Muhammad Ali say on record "I am not fighting him again". Warriors at the end of the a highly competitive close to comfort bout will never say "I will never fight him again". There was very solid public demand for the Vitali-Lewis rematch with big money on offer for both fighters. And lol, what happens next a few months later we hear about Lewis completely forgetting about his outstanding deal with HBO and his promise to give Vitali a rematch and retiring from the sport hiding behind his wife, mummy.

All impartial neutral boxing fans can see exactly how Lewis ran away from his most serious challenge i.e. Vitali and that he was no longer going to get lucky facing over the hill, shot fighters anymore and he knew he would not get so lucky in a rematch with Vitali again.

Tyson has beaten many bigger men. Sammy Scaff in 1985 was 260 lbs, Frank Bruno was 247 lbs in 1996, Andrew Golata was 240 lbs (who had savaged Bowe), Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker, James Bone Crusher Smith, James Tillis, Pinklon Thomas, Larry Holmes had bigger height and weight advantages compared to Tyson.

Evander Holyfield is a hall of famer and a legend and a bigger legend than Lennox Lewis because he fought the best fighters and everyone out there unlike Lewis who fought his main competitors i.e. Holyfield and Tyson at the right time when they were washed up. So to be honest i have no issues admitting that Tyson would always face problems against Holyfield at any time in their careers given that Holyfield is a hall of famer and Legend himself.

A prime FOCUSED Tyson beats the best FOCUSED version of Lewis pre-Emmanuel Steward or with Emmanuel Steward. Lewis being one year older than Tyson does not really mean much. Lewis had a boxer-puncher fighting style i.e. sizing up the opponent, slow to moderate pace starter, ring generalship, throwing more jabs and launching punches at the right time i.e. Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali and this type of fighting style allows for a much longer career and peak where the fighter is able to fight up to his mid to late 30's and early 40's.

Pressure, High work rate, brawler, punchers i.e. Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano, Henry Armstrong, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson have much shorter career's, primes and peaks. These fighters tend to decline by the age of 27-28, are finished in boxing terms by 30 and have retired from the sport by 31-32. At that stage in 2002 when Tyson was 36, it was clear to everyone that the fighter was shot and was fighting a good 10-12 years past his peak because of money and was fighting in a style his body could no longer support whereas Lewis was already at his peak or much close to his peak vis a vis Tyson so again most neutral impartial boxing fans will always highlight this fact that the fight in 2002 has no real significance beyond a certain point.

But if this was a 1988 Tyson versus a Lewis before Emmanuel Stewart (before 1994) or with Emmanuel Stewart (1994 onwards) then there are very high chances of Tyson getting a Knock out against Lewis because of his speed, head movement, counter punching abilities, technique, combinations, ability to getting inside bigger taller fighters and no amount of holding, upper cuts and jabs is going to help Lewis for long. If it took a Lewis in his prime or close to his prime absolute relentless 9 rounds of pressure to get rid of a fat out of shape stationary old Mike Tyson, he will not be able to do inflict any damage on the 1988 Tyson but given that Lewis was badly chinned by Oliver Mccall (ex-sparring partner of Mike Tyson) and Hasim Rahman, the smart money is on Tyson to find Lewis's chin with his combinations and power punches and if that does not happen Tyson has enough in his arsenal to out punch and out point Lewis who will end up with the same fate as Mitch Green, Bone crusher Smith, Tony Tucker, Quick Tillis where he will be one of those Tyson victims where just because he ended up going the distance and not getting knocked out by Mike Tyson was a moral victory for him.

And there is no disputing your biased criticism of Tyson and love for Lewis, don't know enough about your knowledge of the sport so will let that pass.

Likewise

A happy Merry Christmas to you as well

 

OMG someone seriously needs to seek out some professional help.

 

Cheers. Seems like common sense to me.