Mike Tyson and adversity

You Tyson fan boys are so touchy it's comical. I brought it up to make the point that it wasn't a lack of mental fortitude that made Tyson not go for it more against opponents that took him the distance, but rather a tactical decision.

And yes, of course every fighter paces themselves to some extent, that's so obvious that it's silly to mention it, Tyson just did it more so than some others.

 

He was clearly listening to the count from already two or three from the ref. Hell, he was clear enough from the very beginning to punch the canvas in frustration of letting himself get caught. He was very much ready to get up. Stop fantasizing.

 

What you and Sangria is too hot and bothered to understand is that it isn't criticism.

I'm saying that it is the tactically smart thing to do, and has nothing to do with weak mentality.

 

No, this is not more relevant for the discussion whether Douglas won because of the ref's actions. Actually it has nothing to do with it at all.

 

It was a cracker, wasn't it? Nice work, Glass.

 

Just like he was up and Listening to the count from the ref against Holyfield from 1? Yes he was absolutely ready to get up in that fight to because he was listening and watching the ref right?

 

I get where both sides are coming from.

You cant fault Tyson for being so good that he beat many of his opponents so quickly and convincingly he didnt have to overcome adversity.

However, he had a chance to overcome adversity against Holyfield and Douglas. He was dropped and rose to his feet and was stopped both times. Other heavyweight champions (louis, rocky, ali, joshua, even wladmir klitschko) were dropped, badly hurt, behind on the cards ar some point and found a way to win. You cant just gloss over the fact Tyson never did this.

You cant have it both ways. Yes Tyson gets credit for going out on his shield with the dignity of knowing he gave it his all and didnt just turtle up or run to lose by decision. But its a fact he never overcame bleak odds to turn things around like other champions did. That is a very important trait when discussing ATG attributes, legact, h2h ability, etc. Crying about it, shifting the goal posts, or dismissing how great of a trait that is wont change anything.

Also, avenging losses is another way to overcome adversity. Tyson never did this, ever. And its not like he never had the opportunity to avenge his losses or was ducked. This is another VERY important trait when assessing legacy.

 

We have to agree to disagree on Tyson and Lewis. Okay Lewis lost to McCall who you claim is D level. He also lost to Rahman who you claim is D level. He didn’t KO a blubbering McCall, but the record shows a stoppage victory. As for Rahman, Lewis took him lightly and was not FOCUSED on the fighter in front of him. Instead, he was focused on his cameo in the Ocean’s 11 movie. He got flattened by a fighter who shouldn’t have beaten him. However, he did what he felt was necessary to get Rahman back in the ring ASAP and he cold flattened him. Whatever the reason, Rahman was an @55hole during the buildup. You say Lewis was too, that’s fine. Lewis did what any good “pugilist specialist” does to an insubordinate jerk like Rahman, he spanked his @55.

Also, the record shows Lewis NEVER lost to Holyfield. Most impartial fans, sorry you’re showing yourself to not be one of them, knows Lewis BEAT Holyfield twice. On the other hand, Tyson got his @55 kicked twice by Holyfield. Even worse, he entered the ring for their first fight as a 5-1 favorite. I noticed your rant overlooked this MAJOR detail. You also didn’t mention anything about Holyfield’s recent diagnosis of a heart condition when he faced your idol the first time. That’s okay though, because Instead of worrying about his own heart, Holyfield decided he’d take Tyson’s twice. Unfortunately, your idol figured out that he couldn’t do anything about it and did what any DOG would do and bit his master (Holyfield). Speaking of a DOG biting it’s Master, your idol did the same thing to the pugilist specialist Lennox Lewis.

Since you like to point out Lewis’s defeats, both avenged, versus D level competition, let me remind you that Tyson suffered history’s biggest upset of the odds against Douglas at 42-1. Enjoy this link for confirmation.

http://www.predictem.com/boxing/upsets.php

By your logic, if Rahman is a D level fighter, who upset Lewis as a 20-1 underdog, and D is the 4th letter of the alphabet, Douglas must be an H (8th letter of the alphabet) level fighter since he overcame 42-1 odds to upset your idol.

As you unnecessarily pointed out, Tyson did beat bigger guys. However, the only bigger fighter that he beat who was remotely close to being the handful that a prime Bowe was, when he faced Holyfield, is Larry Holmes. That said, let me point out that Tyson beat a 38 year old Holmes. I’m sure you’ll agree that a 38 year old Holmes is older than the 34 year old Tyson and 37 year old Holyfield that Lewis BEAT.

Here’s another tidbit that I’m sure you’ll like to consider while you worship at the altar of Tyson, as it relates to him beating bigger men. Holmes was coming off of a 21 month layoff when he fought a prime Tyson who still had his aura of invincibility. On the other hand, when Holyfield and Tyson got their respective @55es kicked by the same Lewis you’d probably fawn over if you ever happened to meet him, they were coming off of 6 and 8 month layoffs. Moral to this discussion point is that none of the fighters is/are on Bowe’s level. The only exception is Holmes EXCEPT for one thing: he was 38 when your idol beat him. I also can’t believe you used Sammy Scaffa to highlight Tyson beating a bigger man. Really, that’s an insult to former champions and honest fighters like Pinklon Thomas, Biggs, Bonecrusher Smith, and all those other bigger men, none of whom were superior to Bowe.

I tried to be nice but you since you felt it necessary to make an underhanded comment about my boxing knowledge I have to correct you on your inaccurate statement about Holyfield not being an Olympian. Holyfield represented the US in the 84 Olympics, where he had to settle for bronze after suffering a disqualification against Kevin Barry.

 

So i guess Floyd Mayweather is not a legend because he never faced adversity and never got up to change the tide of a fight he was losing in his 50-0?

 

Did u even read my post? I said a fighter cant be faulted for beating elite opponents convincingly and never needing to overcome the odds.

And Floyd Mayweather faced all kinds of adversity in his career, what are you talking about?

-drug draler dad in and out of jail, mother on drugs.

-He moved up 5 weight classes.

-he had brittle hands.

-He was blatantly robbed in the olympics.

-The media and reporters never gave him credit.

-His opponents were often bigger, stronger, younger, etc.

-He was behind against judah and struggled and found a way to win even after being behind on the scorecards, dropped, and later fouled (low blow) by judah.

-rocked hard and nearly stopped by mosley, found a way to win and beat him convincingly.

-He was battered and bullied by the brawler maidana who rehydrated to 160+ lbs in a very close fight and barely won by split decision and was also fouled and suffered his first cut. Floyd made adjustments, changed his gameplan and won very convincingly in the rematch.

-He overcame adversity in the cotto fight getting hit by many body shots, losing rounds, beaten on the ropes and suffering a bloody nose.

-had a an injured shoulder and fought a very close fight moving up in weight against castillo. Some people felt he lost so he gave him a rematch and won easily but no one gives him credit.

-moved up to fight undefeated mexican slugger canelo, a guy everyone said would beat him, and won easily, putting on a clinic.

Tyson faced elite opponents and couldnt overcome the odds.

-Tyson was dropped and never got off the floor to win, fact. Mayweather was dropped by Judah and won.

-He was in fights where he was being outboxed and couldnt find a way to win or make adjustments, fact. Mayweather is easily in the top 10 of all time when it comes to making adjustments.

-He never fought through bad cuts, injuries, or swelling to strugle for a win. Mayweather had to deal with injuries all the time.

-Tyson never beat a guy people favored to beat him. And he never beat a guy who could match him in athleticism, boxing ability, speed, strength, etc. Mayweather did both, he fought plenty of people the whole world said would beat him and he was afraid of and he beat several guys who were his equal or superior in size, strength, youth, speed, etc.

 

Believe it or not, I like Tyson. My comments are in response to the topic of this thread, “Tyson and adversity.” Unfortunately for Tyson he never snatched victory from the jaws of defeat like the following ATGs:

Louis vs Conn
Marciano vs Walcott
Ali vs Frazier
Holmes vs Norton
Leonard vs Hearns
Hagler vs Hearns
Holyfield vs Bowe
Lewis vs Vitali
AJ vs Wlad

I’m not holding Tyson’s success against him. I’m just stating the fact that he either kicked @55 or got his @55 kicked from start to finish, in every single one of his professional fights.

I don’t feel I’m biased. I feel I’m being honest and objective, something Tyson’s most ardent supporters seem incapable of.

I know how sensitive you Tyson lovers are, so don’t take my word for Tyson and adversity. Instead, you can read thoughts from someone a lot closer to the situation.

http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/mike-tyson-trainer-teddy-atlas/

After you read this, I’d like to hear your UNBIASED thoughts about your idol. I realize it might be hard for you and the rest of the Tyson Lovers to set your Pom poms down long enough to do this, but please filter your worship through an objective lens and recognize the painful fact that nearly 28 years later, Tyson still holds the dubious distinction and a place in infamy for losing by KO to a 42-1 underdog. One more thing to filter your worship through: Since you Tyson apologists like to cite his declining skill post prison, I’d like to remind you that Douglas, the 42-1 underdog, shattered your idol’s aura of invincibility PRIOR to his prison sentence.

 

All good points. Spoken like a truly unbiased boxing fan. I should warn you though, Tyson’s loquacious loylalists could teach him a thing or two about facing adversity. I hope you can handle the heat.

 

Floyd is an ATG, but he is not TBE. His resume leaves a few things to be desired, particularly his decision not to fight Margacheato, to make Manny wait for 5 years, to disregard the contracted weight against JMM, and the money grab against the pro debuting McGregor. That said, Floyd took a different and successful path to greatness compared to Tyson. For better or worse, One of Floyd’s greatest attributes is his strict adherence to the following nugget of wisdom from Sun Tzu

“Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
1. He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.”