Mike Tyson on fighting Muhammad Ali

19 years old and had yet to go past 6 rounds.

Mentally, he wasn't confident that he could go the distance. Both he and Rooney talked about this. When faced against Tillis, a veteran fighter who knew how to last, Tyson' confidence slowly drained out and he took his foot of the gas. He was thinking to much. He was worried he gas out.
This wasn't the gym and going 10+ rounds. This is the real deal. This is a fight in front of a crowd and people looking on. It becomes a mental game.

Next fight against Mitch Green, what happened?

Tyson goes the distance again. But the difference this time around, because he went through the last fight with Tillis and knew he could make it the distance, his confidence boosted...and because of that, fought confidently and much better against Green.


People over-look this little thing when looking at a young, maturing fighter.

It's about experience. He was gaining experience.

And Tyson should get a lot of credit for how fast he was learning. He was improving Mentally and Technically very fast.


If they hadn't pushed him so damn fast, he would have been better off gradually building up that confidence for his stamina.

It was never physical; it was mental. You learn to relax with experience.


what was going on during Ali's pre-Champion figiht?

He was having a tough time with Doug Jones.
He was getting knocked on his ass by Sonny Banks.
And Henry Cooper sent him into another world.


Both of them, more than likely, needed those fights before going for the title.


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As far as Ali vs. Tyson and what each said...Ali respected Tyson. He called him "Awesome" as a fighter...but felt he would dance/move, and take over in the later rounds....starting with Round 10. Tire him out first. Then attack.

For Tyson, Ali is his Idol. I don't even know if he has ever talked **** about his idols in saying he would beat them and so on.

Now if Tyson was in that era, and D'Amato was his trainer, and Ali was the Champ.....Ali becomes just another opponent to deal with. there are no idols. This is how D'Amato trained him. Nobody gets compliments. Their your enemy if they are active.

 

Tyson did continually improve.

He also started to hook off the Jab more. And used better feints.

Again...confidence thing had a big part in this fight.

Even Rooney said Tyson was doing things in the Gym that had yet to come out in fights. It gradually came out as he gained confidence.

I'm not saying you don't make a good case, but it isn't quite the same fighter at 19 then he was later on. Even just one fight helped him evolve. But it would also be like me using footage of Ali struggled with the likes of Doug Jones...and there were reasons for that.

But are there problems with Taller movers that are quick and can jab...YES. But Ali has his own holes in his game.

The interesting part is that he used him as a sparring partner afterwards. He had a habit of that.



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9S4ZDHcdlQ[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2pHywbVR2c[/ame]

 

Ali would have schooled any Tyson prime, super prime you name it. He would have eventually knocked tyson out.

 

A pre prime Tyson vs an experienced Tillis.

As a counterpoint, pre prime Ali vs Doug Jones, who was outweighed by 14 lbs:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2S8c_3DWgY[/ame]

 

A very young Tyson respected Holmes...that was, until D'Amato got on his case and ridiculed Holmes. Holmes was the enemy. Holmes beat Ali bad. Tyson swore vengeance...and Holmes was still active during Ali's young/teen years so he was the example of who to beat.

Tyson tells the story about how he was at a dance and couldn't get a ride home. D'Amato demanded him to be on time and Tyson ran home. Why? Because he had to train for Larry Holmes. Holmes had to be beaten.

This was some crazy ****.


Holmes made things worse for himself with the way he talked bad about Tyson in the build-up. Tyson was supposedly infuriated.
If I remember correctly, I think Steve Lott said that Tyson was going to talk bad about Larry after he knocked him out...but Lott grabbed his arm and made persuaded him to be gracious (for his image more than likely at that time).


Like I said in a previous post, Ali was his idol and he was not an active fighter. He wasn't the enemy. Just a Demi-God.
Now make things different...and have Tyson in Ali's era, D'Amato as his trainer, Ali becomes the enemy and the mindset is to seek and destroy.

 

For F*ck sake Ali was almost 39 Years old when Holmes beat him,I am always amused when the Larry Holmes beating Ali bull**** emerges Ali was over the Hill and an old Man,most people thought the Holmes V Ali Fight should not have taken place,a Prime Ali would have destroyed Holmes end of story.!!!!

 

Yes, a faded blown up MW/LH Patterson with a bad back was exactly like Tyson, except for the fact that Tyson was much bigger, stronger, powerful, better chin, more aggressive, evolved the Peek-a-boo style by the time he was in his 20's...and learned to shuffle quicker with his feet to make up distance.

But other than that...



I'm all for Ali being favored but some of the arguments lack when people start to think Ali schools him.

 

I understand we cannot take a PRIME Tyson and take him back in time to face Ali or vice versa.

The reason I chose Tillis cause I thought he at least resembled a boxer who could stick and move similar to Ali. I see the considerable difference in confidence between those fights post-Tillis but the fact is that Bruno illegally held Tyson on the back of the head, Green was simply looking to make it out and survive 12 Rounds as others. Holmes was not a great representation of a prime & focused Larry.

Out of all Tyson's opponents pre-Douglas at least in this instance, Tillis for the early part of the fight was at least attempting to outbox the young Tyson. Rather than simply surviving. It think he confused Tyson for the early part of with his continual movement. It's why I chose him as an example.

Yes he has some flaws, Ali as you may know couldn't traditionally block a jab & was susceptible to the left hook, as evidence by Frazier, Norton fights.

Very interesting I didn't realize that.

Look how prime Ali is able to easily evade a leaping left hook by Patterson.

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Foreman and Liston are different types of fighters than Tyson.

Foreman was slow, not that skilled from a technical stand-point, and threw lots of wide shots you could see coming. He also ditched his Jab after he destroyed Frazier.

Liston: Slacked off in training, wasn't nearly as fast as Tyson in any department. Didn't have the combinations and so on.

The athletic ability/speed of Tyson, from head to toe is enough to see the difference in these fighters.

Now Mindset...that's another thing. Ali >

Styles, Ability...all different.

 

Cheers, I didn't know the behind the scenes stuff.

I agree, with D'Amato's psychological manipulations, Tyson was very scary. I still see a prime, before Vietnam Ali winning a SD but both fighters would be immeasurably damaged.

 

A Testament to Ali was that Big George who had a long and incredible career was knocked out once,and that was by Ali even when George was Fighting over 40 Years old no one could TKO Him.!!!!

 

I'm not saying it isn't valid, but what I am saying is that Tyson continually developed so he wouldn't have as many problems.

Even just working on his Jab and foot movement improved. That's how he was able to adjust from trying to Knock out Tucker to just boxing behind the Jab after Rooney talked to him in the corner.

The more relaxed you are, the more your mind allows you to do. That was really the point with Tillis and Green...and when Rooney/Tyson talked about the difference between Tyson then and "now."

Even with Tillis, Tyson was asked about a rematch possibility and he thought there basically was no point but if it did happened...it would be an entirely different fight because he had improved all around. He knew it based on their sparring sessions as well. Of course, Tillis had an entirely different take on it.


All Ali's knock-downs came from Left-Hooks. Sonny Banks caught him in the exchange with a Left-Hook as well.

Ali did have trouble with the Jab. That's one way to trap him. But of course, Ali when he came back was also now at a disadvantage because he didn't have his legs to move around like he once had which enabled him to lure you in. So when forced to rely on more boxing skills than athletic talent....his flaws were made more known.



** In the end, I'm not saying Ali shouldn't be favored or wouldn't win...not at all...I'm just trying to help make the fight argument more strong/interesting.

It would have been interesting if Ali didn't have the layoff and faced who he faced. We would have gotten a better understanding of what he was capable of at his best vs. them.

And the same with Tyson. If he hadn't left Rooney, stayed motivated, and gone into the 90's on top of his game...it would have been interesting to see what he was truly made of at this best.

Holes....

Overall, I think it depends on how many rounds. If it is 15, it's going to favor Ali a lot more because like he said, he would wait until the 10th, when Tyson (is hopefully tired) to put it on him. Of course it depends on how much Ali himself has left because Tyson was good at taking your legs away with body-shots. Confidence as well but given it's Ali...his doesn't seem to ever go down. Just a different Animal than the opponents Tyson fought in the 80's.

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Tyson could set up his hook. Patterson didn't do it here.

Tyson later liked to pop that jab..even use feints to set it up. Not always, but he did do it if he couldn't catch you with it after trying it.

Again, Patterson's and Tyson's styles are only alike in the foundation. Tyson improved upon it.

Tyson liked to bob-weave while shuffling forward behind the Jab to get inside as well. You can see how he trained for it in videos with him and Rooney. He was incredibly fast.


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I loved Mike Tyson would be in my Top 10 Heavyweights ever,but in his 6 Losses he was TKOd 5 times the other loss was a disqualification,Mike did not like being taken the distance by the Top Heavyweights,even Douglas survived his early onslaught to finish him off in later rounds,Ali would have been well aware of this fact and exploited it to the Max.!!!!

 

patterson was 2 inches taller and just as aggressive. Also patterson's TKO losses were all ref stoppage, he finished every fight on his feet including the ingmar fight. Tyson on the other hand was brutally K.O'd by a feather fisted buster douglas. :hi:

 

I think Ali would not clown around against Tyson, like here against Patterson.