Mike Tyson Prime Vs Muhammad Ali 1964

Ali loses badly. And that's not debatable.

 

These are all dumb and unfounded assumptions.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Px

 

turmoils like your mom passing from a stroke 23 days before your title fight against the most intimidating opponent in your career and the Vegas odds having you listed as a 42-1 underdog. Having a high fever and cold days before your fight while the mother of your child battles leukemia while you and your wife have a separation. All those Tyson fanboys are so quick to spit up excuses for Tyson but nobody ever talks about how Buster Douglas was having a lot of personal and physical issues as well. Ali whoops Tyson until he decides to KO him. Maybe someday your eyes will be opened.

Edit: I actually had the flu (with a temp of 104 F and bad chills) about a month ago and it drained me so much physically that when I got back in the gym I was dying after two rounds on the heavy bag. I couldn't imagine having a title fight after being sick like that.

 

You’re one of those people who don’t understand the difference between fact and opinion.

You believe that if you think something is true, that makes it a fact. When in fact, it makes it your opinion.

Pretty clearly from the tone of your posts, you’re one of those boisterous internet bully types who thinks if you say something aggressively and surly enough, it makes you right … or that others will back down and concede. It’s a complex. Look at your posts and tell me you are proud of yourself.

Mike Tyson was 23 1/2 years old when he fought Buster Douglas. That is in his prime.

Since the end of 1988, in which his last fight was against Michael Spinks, Tyson had fought twice and won by KO vs Frank Bruno (in five) and Carl Williams (in one). Not a single person on earth was claiming they were seeing any signs of physical decline nor regression during that period of time.

He was in his prime.

Furthermore, vs Douglas he was 2 1/4 pounds over his weight when he fought Spinks in 1988, when you say he was in his prime. That’s 1% heavier, a negligible difference for any fighter — especially a heavyweight — and not an indicator that he was out of shape. (Consider that Buster gained like 15 pounds between Tyson and losing to Holyfield in his next fight, a real indicator of a guy not being in shape).

In his two fights after Buster, Tyson won both by KO 1. Again, no sign of slippage.

The ONLY indication that Tyson wasn’t ready for Douglas is that he lost. Which makes it true for every fighter who ever lost … if they were better prepared, they would have won, lol.

FACT: Mike had subpar performances vs James Smith and Tony Tucker and a few others before, but he won so no big deal. That was with Rooney.

FACT: Fighters throughout history have changed trainers. Sometimes they won, sometimes they lost. Tyson himself had previously changed from Cus D’Amato to Teddy Atlas to Kevin Rooney. Making another change in trainers doesn’t change the fact that Tyson was in his prime for Douglas.

If Mike wasn’t, at such a young age with no major physical problem occurring (broken hand, major surgery, detached retina, etc), wasn’t prepared … that’s on him. It’s something that factors into how great he was or wasn’t. As noted, Muhammad Ali wasn’t always the best prepared version of himself but he never lost to an underdog who he was a 42-1 favorite to beat, nor anything close to that — the best version of Ali never lost.

If a flash-in-the-pan like Buster Douglas, who never did anything before or after to indicate he had greatness in him, manhandled and beat up Tyson the way he did, Ali would destroy him.

 

Those guys didn’t get absolutely shut-down and slapped all over the ring in their prime like Tyson did.

 

Yep.

A few facts from the first Liston fight stand Ali in very good stead.

Sonny landed to head and body - Ali took it, boxed through it and got stronger.

Ali's footwork was amazing - he started off dancing/bouncing around, herky jerky, exaggerated head movement to slip and duck Sonny's shots and then he comes down off his toes and wins the battle of jabs, slipping both outside and inside Sonny's legendary jab and boxing off his own quick, snappy jab and pivot, keeping Sonny turning and having to deal with Ali first before he could apply consistent, effective forward movement.

Sonny's headmovement was excellent - he slipped many of Ali's jabs, but Ali's jab was versatile and stupidly quick. Sometimes, he flicks it, sometimes he stamps on it and it peppers the eyes and forehead. Ali also doubled and tripled it. Then, when he's established a pattern, he throws the right hand behind the jab and opens up with a flurry and makes you appreciate that Sonny was actually the smaller man, not in width, but overall stature.

The fight was closer than usually credited but in terms of fundamentals, classic boxing, reflexes and nerve, Ali negated Sonny's legendary jab, hooks and right hands. Sonny had success to the body but as we grew to know, Ali arguably takes a body shot better than any man who's ever boxed.

Ali has the tools after Liston I to deal with Mike. Mike has all the physical tools to deal with Ali, arguably, to deal with any man who's ever boxed, but boxing at an elite level is much more than physical tools - psychology, mentality, courage, confidence, durability and indomitable will to win are just as if not more important.

When Ali's been under pressure he's gotten up and carried on, came out on the other side, mostly victorious - when Mike had his real moments of pressure, he's cracked - these moments reveal something about character and when you have two greats match up, almost certainly, their character will be significant determining factor.

 

I don't really know what you mean, but for peace of mind, I'll admit you're right even if you write that Wlad Klitschko came out drunk to fight Sanders and had him on the boards for more than 14 seconds Peace, brother

 

The question is, what's worse: getting absolutely shut-down and slapped all over the ring in their prime or getting one shotted/bombed out in 2.

 

Definitely the first. Its HW, pretty much anyone can one-shot one another if they get lucky enough, but getting absolutely slapped around before getting KO'd leaves no room for any debate.

 

Let’s take a snapshot comparison, shall we?

When Mike Tyson was 23 1/2 years old, he was getting battered around the ring by a 42-1 underdog named James Douglas.

When Ali was 23 1/2 years old, he was two months past stopping Sonny Liston … for the second time.

Sonny was the most fearsome heavyweight who had come along, a lineal champ, and arguably in the top 2-3 H2H heavyweights of all time when he stepped into the ring against Ali (Louis rates higher, at the time some would probably lean Dempsey and Marciano greater but nobody who knew what they were talking about would seriously consider them better H2H.)

Douglas was a talented but mostly unmotivated guy who got stopped without putting up much resistance vs Tony Tucker in a fight for a lightly-regarded bauble at the time he stepped into the ring with ‘Iron’ Mike.

Sonny had cleaned out a division. Buster had cleaned his plate at the buffet and gone back for seconds.

Aside from Ali, Sonny lost by KO just once, at the very end of his career when he was old, faded, drinking heavily and likely a heroin addict.

Buster would be KO’d six times in his career. (Five officially, another time by Louis Monaco, a club fighter, which was ruled a DQ because his KO punch landed after the bell.) Tyson couldn’t stop a guy who had already been stopped by Mike White, Tucker and David Bey.

 

Let's make a comparison - when Ali was 22, he should have lost to a LWH boxer named Doug Jones. When Tyson was 22, he outclassed a LWH boxer named Michael Spinks. And even before that, Tubbs, Holmes, Biggs, Thomas... Ali's greatest achievement at that time was a 50-year-old LHW boxer named Archie Moore.

Wake up, Saintpat, we're not talking about Tokyo Mike, but prime Mike. As you yourself pointed out, Tyson didn't beat the guy Tucker, Ferguson, or Savarese beat... and a healthy Buster, not the sick one from Tokyo So Tokyo Mike loses to Ferguson, Savarese, Tucker, and of course, any Ali, maybe even the one from Berbick.

 

Anyone who genuinely picks Mike Tyson severely dislikes Muhammad Ali, or, is just, plain simply, kidding themselves.

 

Jones, Moore and Spinks were left handed?

 

It's a bit crazy that Joe Frazier 1971 lost to Tyson in a similar vote, and Ali 1964 won against Tyson
I think any reasonable boxing fan who knows his stuff would objectively bet on Frazier 71 over Ali 64. And yet, Frazier 1971's style and personality are much worse for Tyson than Ali 1964's.
Sentiment determines our picks, that's all but that's also good in a way; without sentiment, we wouldn't be on this forum.