Mike Tyson, Top Ten Worthy?

He probably would have bounced back into shape had he squeezed by Douglas and then beaten Holyfield.

 

Douglas took the count perfectly, he was that hurt the very next round he proceeded to beat the **** out of Tyson....

 

As are Liston, Lewis, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson, etc.

 

Liston never made a single title defense. How does he rate higher?

Please list Dempsey's notable wins, then Tyson's, then compare objectively?

Here, I'll do it for you...

Willard
Fulton
Sharkey
Gibbons
Firpo
Brennan
Miske
Carpentier

Tucker
Holmes
Spinks
Ruddock
Tubbs
Bruno
Bruno
Berbick
Thomas
Smith


Tyson made more title defenses than Jack even though he had the top spot for half the time because he didn't sit on his ass and cherrypick.

 

Which hurts his legacy big time, a 23 year old in his prime who fought that regularly getting sparked out by a fringe contender....

 

It's not all about resume. Liston lost the championship to Muhammad Ali. Their is no shame in that. He cleaned out the heavyweight division. Was being ducked for years by the champion who was also an ATG. When he finally got his hands on Patterson, he annihilated twice in the first round.

 

Patterson wasn't an ATG.

 

How exactly was Patterson an All Time Great?

Liston lost to an extremely green Clay who had just gone life and death with Henry Cooper. Clay would go on to become Ali who would arguably become "The Greatest" but the guy Liston fought was nothing of the sort.

 

What hurts Dempsey in comparison is that a 23 year old had already accomplished more in his career than Dempsey ever would.

 

You've already stated that Tyson's exact ascension to the throne is debatable. The multi-belt situation plus Spinks as "linear" makes for some confusion.
Note that Liston did not have the benefit of a similar situation. If his day were like these days or Tyson's day, he would have picked up a belt or two in 1959 or 1960, made a string of defenses, crushed Patterson then lost to Clay.

I think 1964 Clay beats any version of Tyson.

 

I already said Louis. :good

Lewis, I'm not sure. Seems overrated to me. But his lonegvity might be enough to put him in front of Tyson, and he did beat a semi-decent version of Holyfield.

I'd certainly rate Liston above Tyson, but perhaps there's room for debate. Same with Dempsey, Marciano and Johnson.
Jeffries and Wlad Klitschko might deserve to be above Tyson too.
There's a few more who are as deserving as Tyson too.

Tyson's main problem is he didn't beat any great fighters and barely beat any good contenders who were in their primes either. Which isn't unusual for a heavyweight champ, but there's the black mark of getting a beating from Douglas that can't be erased.

 

So why is Dempsey usually ranked higher than Tyson on most people's list?

 

Depends how you define ATG.

I have both Patterson and JJ Walcott in my top twenty HWs.

Others might not, but the inclusion is at a minimum, reasonable.

And given that we have had thousands of pro HWs over the last century or more, I would consider the top twenty of them in the ATG category.

Not everyone would agree, but again, describing a top 20 as an ATG is far from unreasonable.

That's not how I remember it, Seamus.

Clay was in clear control of Cooper, carrying his opponent till he got to round five, where he had predicted a KO.

He clowned a bit too much and got caught with a perfect shot.

He was up on his feet between 3 and 4 seconds later.

In round five, he immediately got down to business and ended things a couple of minutes in.

Had he been of a mind to, he could have done the same thing in round 2.


Liston faced a very serious threat in Clay, and did not accord him sufficient seriousness and respect.

Before that fight, nobody doubted Liston's menace.

Dude was a bad mother- fu*ker.

 

Depends on the individual, I imagine. Many self-proclaimed historians of the sport have an intrinsic vested interest in promoting old timers over more recent fighters. To borrow a baseball term, they are guarding the plate. But again, it depends on the individual.

In so far as resume, and the quality of the heavyweights they beat, Tyson blows Dempsey out of the water.