Mike Tyson vs George Foreman 1988

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Hey Jimmy, stay on topic please ...............how many losses did George Foreman avenge.....patiently waiting.

Trivia: Who was the ONLY champ in ANY weightclass who was not only once but TWICE ko'ed by ONE single punch from ham and eggers ?

More to the topic......Tyson does not give 2F's what some people think about him or his legacy , it never has entered his mind, still is the most recognized Heavyweight or fighter next to Ali world wide........ as far as he is concerned he is on a lucky streak because he is still alive ...............

 

Tyson beat Frazier almost 10 years before he beat Seldon. He was at his best before prison and there are notable differences between pre-prison Tyson and post-prison.

1. Tyson was behind on all 3 scorecards against Botha in a fight where he had trouble establishing any rhythm and he scored a stoppage victory in the 5th via a 1 punch KO. The fact that he was a 7-1 favorite has nothing to do with it. In any case Tyson was the underdog only once in his career. The larger point is that you seem to be moving the goal posts with an evolving criteria.

2. Again, you seem to be moving the goal posts here. In effect, what you're saying is that Frazier ALMOST beat Ali in Manila. Tyson ALMOST beat Douglas in Tokyo.

One one hand you're saying a big thing is "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" and now you've changed it to "he should never find himself in that position to push a 42-1 underdog to the brink". You're trying to have it both ways.

3. You said Lewis avenged his defeats. What would have happened if McCall retired shortly after the fight and never gave him a rematch?

No argument with Louis's Rank overall. I rate him at #1 at Heavyweight.

1. Lewis's reign was from 1999-2003. Tyson's was from 1986-1990. During those respective periods Tyson was the more dominant Champion. Lewis was a top contender from 1992-1999 and he picked up some good wins, but he wasn't "the man" dominating for a decade like his fervent supporters like to claim.

2. Holyfield was 37 when he faced Lewis. He was decent but was clearly showing his age. I personally think that a younger Holyfield would have decisioned Lewis if that fight took place earlier. Lewis benefited greatly from beating Holyfield and Tyson when they were at the point in their careers that they were more name than merit. Vitaly and Ruddock were top tier wins.

3. Lewis and Bowe both share the blame in the fight not happening except Lewis seems to be the one that got the most mileage from it. It's perhaps why you haven't questioned why Lewis lost to those journeymen in the first place, or why he sold his IBF title to Don King for $1 million and a Ranger Rover rather than fighting Chris Byrd.

4. Tyson was Ring Magazine's #1 p4p for 1987, 1988, 1989. That's practically unheard of for a Heavyweight. He is one of the 3 fighters in history I would always give at worst 50/50 odds against anyone in history. The combination of both speed and power added something to his fights; the way he would be beat his opponents in someways separates him from Lewis.

5. Youngest Heavyweight Champion and the first to unify the WBC, WBA and IBF individually. Competed for title fights in 3 different decades and was the benchmark fighter of his generation. Legacy's were validated based on one's performance with Tyson. Holyfield is a TOP 10 ATG Heavy based on his wins over Tyson. Without them, he'd drop Top 20. Tyson didn't need to validate his career by beating Lewis; it was the other way around. Lewis was great and I have him in my Top 10, but I rank Tyson ahead.

MY LIST:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Lennox Lewis
8. George Foreman
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Joe Frazier

11. Wladimir Klitschko
12. Jack Dempsey
13. Sonny Liston
14. Ezzard Charles
14. Sam Langford
16. Harry Wills
17. Jim Jeffries
18. Floyd Patterson
19. Riddick Bowe
20. Vitaly Klitschko

 

Everyone knows post-prison Tyson was less effective than pre-prison, prime Tyson. However, Tyson fans can’t hold it against his Daddies (Evander and Lennox) and other conquerors for kicking his @55. Tyson should’ve stayed on the sidelines if he knew his heart wasn’t in it. Of course, we all know why he didn’t. Tyson is a psychologically fragile conman at heart. He needed the money.

1. You give Tyson a lot of credit for beating Botha. The reality is that if he was the “b side” fighter, Richard Steele would’ve disqualified him for trying to break Botha’s arm, not once, not twice, but 3 times. Again psychologically fragile.

2. I’m not moving the goalposts, I’m stating facts.

Frazier vs Ali: 1 win, 2 losses, in the greatest trilogy of all-time. Ali himself admitted that he almost quit in Manila.
Tyson vs Douglas: 1 loss, as a 42 to 1 favorite. Aside from the KD, and the 13-second count, Douglas has never acknowledged being in any danger. He flat out kicked Tyson’s @55, from pillar to post. I’d view Tyson a little differently if he could’ve pulled out the win. Unfortunately, he did not.
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3. Lennox, then the WBC #1 contender, fought McCall in the rematch after Tyson paid him $4M to step aside for his fight with Seldon and reneged on his guarantee to fight him next. Tyson and King got burned playing the risk reward game as they wrongly assumed Holyfield, 2-2 in his previous 4 fights, was an easier mark. As Maury would say, “in the case of Armbar Mike Tyson, Evander, you ARE the father!”

If McCall never granted Lewis the rematch, it wouldn’t diminish Lennox’s greatness. After all, he did avenge the Rahman defeat. Again, Tyson never got revenge against any of his 5 conquerors.


1. From 1995 to 2003, Lennox was dominant. In 1996, Tyson paid his daddy, Lennox, $4M to step aside. Then 2 months and 2 days after beating Seldon, he was on the losing end of a “money grab” gone wrong, when his other daddy whipped his @55. Karmic proof that sometimes the conman loses.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_Heavyweight--1990s

2. I could see Holyfield winning 3 out of 10 fights against Lennox. I could also see Holyfield winning 10 out of 10 against Tyson. I could see Tyson winning MAYBE 2 out of 10 against Lennox. I stress maybe because of how intelligent Lennox was. He’s not the type of guy to get burned twice by the same tactic, from the same opponent.

It would’ve been nice if Tyson put aside his con and honored his word to meet Lennox in 1996, while he still had merit AND name. Instead, he went for the money against a “weaker” Holyfield and lost. Ironically, a few years later, when Tyson was only a name, Lennox threw his “dog” a bone in the form of a good payday. I say threw him a bone because all of the opponents leading into his fight with Lennox were gimmes. Then Tyson, ever the conman, begged “Daddy” for a rematch during the post fight interview. Pathetic...it was funny to see Lennox smirk at his request...lol!

3. I place the blame squarely on Bowe for the fight not happening. Lennox stopped him in the Olympics, Gonzalez decisioned him in the amateurs. Bowe jumped at the chance to beat Gonzalez, whereas he dumped his hard earned belt in the trash to avoid Lennox.

Chris Byrd would’ve been a stylistic headache for Lennox. Not saying he would’ve lost, but definitely not confident he would’ve won either. I’ve always liked Byrd and wished he would’ve fought professional closer to his natural weight. Byrd vs RJJ @175 is a fight fan’s dream.

4. I don’t view Tyson 50/50 with anyone in history, particularly not against Holyfield. Holyfield is all dog, the type of guy you have to knockdown, shoot, and stand on to keep him down. Meanwhile, Tyson is the type of guy who needs constant reassurance in order to succeed. He also does not handle resistance well, as evidenced by the Bite and the Armbar.

Who are your other 2 50/50 fighters? Mine 3 would be Hagler at 160, Pernell at 135, and SRR at 147.

5. Like Armstrong and Benitez, I strongly believe Tyson’s record as the youngest HW champion will stand the test of time.

Although the absence of a Tyson fight would count as a major omission in Lennox’s career, you’re doing exactly what you accused me of: trying to have it both ways. In one breath, you say that Tyson was more name than merit by the time Lennox beat him. Then you praise Tyson for fighting for the title in 3 different decades. Something has to give here. I lean towards your first statement of more name than merit. Again, all of this could’ve been avoided if Tyson chose to honor his $4M step aside agreement with Lennox. The conman didn’t and here we are.

Your HW rankings look good. I read a list somewhere that had Frazier, Foreman, and Dempsey ahead of Tyson, Holyfield, and Lennox. Of the 6 fighters I named, I believe Dempsey was the highest, Tyson 10, Holyfield 11, and Lewis 12. I also don’t remember Bowe making the list.

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You give him no credit for beating Botha. You asked for an example and I gave you one that was relevant.

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Frazier lost 2 out of 3 to Ali. If you held him to the same standard as Tyson you'd focus more on his inability to win than his effort in losing. And just because Ali said he "almost quit" doesn't mean it should be taken literally. Knowing what we know about Ali, he would never quit in a fight; he'd look for a way to win. And he'd certainly not quit in a fight where he's comfortably against a fighter who was likely on his way to a stoppage loss. Tyson was getting beat from pillar to post and out of nowhere he lands what could have been a fight ending uppercut against Douglas. He came out swinging in the 9th round but he was clearly too far gone to capitalize on a scenario where he typically shines. In terms of getting the win? Tyson's uppercut against Douglas was far more consequential than anything Frazier did against Ali. A different ref could have waived off the fight in favor of Tyson with a quicker count.

Exhibit A
"The World Boxing Council wants Tyson to defend against Lennox Lewis of England, a former champion and now its No. 1 contender. Lewis turned down a $13.5 million guarantee to fight Tyson. Lewis then accepted $4 million from King to step aside and allow Tyson to fight Seldon, with the proviso that Tyson, assuming he beat Seldon, would fight Lewis next. Tyson is expected to receive $30 million for fighting Seldon."

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/04/sports/boxing-bronchitis-stops-tyson-seldon-fight-is-off.html

Exhibit B
"The deal was $21 million for Bowe and a 50-50 split if the final purse went above $32 million," Frank Maloney, who represents Lewis, said Tuesday. Lewis was guaranteed $11 million.

"We declined that, and the Bowe fight won't happen until the summer of 1994," Maloney said.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-21/sports/sp-15342_1_lennox-lewis

A) It wasn't about risk reward with Lewis; he was offered the fight and turned it down because contrary to what appears to be popular opinion, Lewis wasn't some white knight savior in the Heavyweight Division, he was a pampered superstar with unreasonable demands that over inflated his own worth and ability to draw crowds. I should also add that the "controversial" decision over Ray Mercer in Madison Square Garden hurt Lewis's stock more than it helped it. He got greedy and for the 2nd time in his career lost a lucrative fight.

B) Bowe's camp tried to accommodate him. Bowe was the undefeated undisputed Heavyweight Champion and quite arguably the bigger draw. Lewis could have taken the $11 million payday and the 50/50 split of the back end that he was generously offered. Bowe's camp's refusal to give in to Lewis's demands resulted in Bowe getting stripped of the WBC. Rock Neuman knowing they were getting stripped anyway decides to pull a publicity stunt dumping the belt in the trash. The optics clearly didn't go well over the years.

By the way, how many losses did George Foreman avenge? Joe Frazier? What about Sonny Liston?

We are all free to speculate what could have happened but based on what we saw from Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis, its safe to say that the subtracting a few years from the actual fights itself would benefit some fighters more than others with Tyson being the largest beneficiary.

Take a look at his clip and go to 54:30. that flurry that Tyson threw and landed on Ribalta; was he physically capable of throwing punches with the same speed and precision post prison?

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"In the murky pond that is professional boxing, there are many different types of ducks. There are lame ducks, like Bill Cayton trying to enforce his contract with Mike Tyson. There are sitting ducks, like Tommy Morrison hung up on the ropes against Ray Mercer. There are ducks that go quack-quack-quack, like Don King near a microphone.

And then, there is the kind of duck that Evander Holyfield and his camp are trying to pull on Mike Tyson. Make no mistake about it, the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world and his "think tank" are indisputably ducking the No. 1 contender."

"Privately, another member of Team Evander was confiding to friends that he feared the Tyson fight and doubted Holyfield's ability to win it. This member believed Holyfield would be better served by fighting Foreman again, for between $15 million and $20 million, and then picking off the lesser contenders out there for $8 million to $10 million a pop. Instead, they were committed to going for the big score against the world's toughest fighter.

As the fight neared, Holyfield's camp grew resigned to the match, but their statements were remarkably tame, almost conciliatory, to Tyson. Just another fight, they said. "One bag of sugar ain't no sweeter than another," trainer George Benton said.

Even Holyfield seemed unexcited about the prospect of fighting Tyson. Last week in Houston he told me, "I keep thinking, 'What does Evander Holyfield gain from this fight?' I'm already the heavyweight champion of the world. I ain't getting anything more from this than a victory."

It was almost as if it was an inconvenience to have to fight Tyson, even with a $30-million paycheck attached."

Lewis got a pass for this because Byrd is not a puncher and by extension, he's not a perceived threat. But this was a blatant duck.

I'm speaking about Heavyweights. Tyson, Ali and Lewis are the 3 fighters who I would give even money odds against anyone in history.

Agreed.

I was simply highlighting the fact that Tyson was the benchmark fighter of his generation and his relevance remained even as his talent waned underscoring how great he was and how much mileage he was able to get from it. To be honest, all of it could have been avoided if Lewis just accepted the $13.5 Million dollar payday in 1996.

Thanks. Do you have a list?

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Tyson's life is a case study in luck and lucky breaks. From meeting Bobby Stewart to getting top tier management out the gate to having the right genetics to surviving years of drugs and alcohol without Od'ing. He rightfully should have been dead years ago. He's probably going to live longer than Max Schmeling.

 

Old Foreman would've knocked Ruddock out? No he wouldn't have. He would've gotten hurt against a fighter more dangerous than Alex Stewart.

 

Not this Foreman. This Foreman would've gotten pounded on and seriously hurt. And I've never said Mike Tyson wasn't beatable.

 

All I have to say is that Tyson's legacy is built on what he did between 1985-1989. For the most part. So in H2H matchups, unless otherwise specified, we usually use the Tyson of those years.

 

I understand clearly which version of Tyson people use for H2H matchups. I still think Tyson, even at his best, is psychologically fragile and NEVER beats Holyfield. He might catch Lewis once or twice, out of ten bouts, but not Holyfield.