Mike Tyson Vs. George Foreman

Okay, fair enough. Although you may be happy to know that I would choose Tyson over Holmes every time. I'd choose Tyson to have an excellent chance against Ali -the first time, and Louis would be at great risk early. Liston, Foreman, Johnson, Bowe, Holyfield, and perhaps Lewis shuold be favored... but especially the first two. And Holyfield.

 

i too pick foreman and the uppercut will play a big role but...

foreman pushing tyson back is to tyson's advantage...

tyson is a bad infighter and most dangerous when COMING IN...

so foreman is actually positioning tyson at an optimal distance...

comparing foreman and berbick is ridiculous but i do recall berbick pushing tyson back and tyson just gets positioned to do more damage. sure this isn't comfortable to be pushed around - but tyson was athletic enough to handle that.

as for your comment on resilience...

i agree with the mental aspect (and this is the bottom line in a boxing match - but NOT in a physical brawl)

but physically, tyson had good recovery. see the fights where ruddock lands monster shots on tyson and tyson immediately counters with a punch that decks ruddock. at one point, ruddock even landed 2-3 heavy shots that snapped tyson's neck and tyson comes righ back. the key with the douglas / holy fight is that tyson was OUTMANEUVERED by skill and he couldn't think of a strategy against it. this is why he was ineffective, even physically. such was not the case in a slugfest with ruddock. and even in the douglas fight, tyson knocked down douglas after succumbing a beating (for the moment that douglas stopped fighting INTELLIGENTLY). and this is an important issue to address because you can't compare holy & douglas to the way foreman will beat or FRUSTRATE tyson. latter two did it mentally, foreman would have to do it physically (and he seems to have the tools). but one must consider that this raises hopes for tyson fans. because imo, from 1985 to 1998 (before his second break from fighting that left him never the same), tyson lost only when OUTTHOUGHT - but no one ever physically in a CRUDE, BRAWLING, SLUGFEST which is what foreman would bring.

 

I agree that Joe Louis would have to guard that chin of his early against Tyson. That would be a very dicey fight early, especially for Louis. Tyson's early rush and his aggressiveness would be tough for Joe in my opinion. But it would be a good fight. I wouldn't be surprised if Joe caught Mike early as well.

As far as Holmes, I might have to lean more towards Tyson being the favorite. Holmes definitely had the skill and the left jab to give Tyson fits, I'm not sure how Holmes would be able to handle Tyson's aggressiveness and pressure. As I mentioned in another post regarding the Douglas/Tyson fight, I don't think Holmes would have the tools to beat Tyson like Douglas did. Many people compared Buster Douglas that night to a prime Larry Holmes. But Douglas had more power and threw better combinations; he had the power to gain Tyson's respect in a way that Holmes wouldn't!

 

Great analysis! I agree with you, Douglas and Holyfield brought a style of fighting that Foreman would not. Foreman wouldn't come out and try to tie up or outbox Tyson; he'd come out and seek to obliterate Tyson like he tried to do to everyone else. The fight would be short and brutal!

 

I think we'd agree that Foreman is quite a different beast than Bruno, Ruddock, Bonecrusher, and the other big ones that faced Tyson.

I posted earlier thoughts on the difference between Berbick's "get off me" shoves and Foreman's "watch how easily I put you where I want to so that I can plant these bombs on your face" shoves. No fighter Tyson ever faced rushed him like a train launching heavy artillery. Tyson is no good off the back foot and Foreman, you'd agree, sure as hell isn't going backwards. I can't see Tyson recovering from the early onslaught and taking over the fight. He was durable, yes, but he was not resilient --and there is a difference.

Please see earlier posts on this -there are many that I contributed and I don't want to re-debate the same points.

 

I don't remember anyone out here arguing that Foreman would "outthink" Tyson.

You and anon agree that guys who tried to outbrawl Tyson didn't fare well. By the same token, no short pressure fighter ever survived many rounds against Foreman -old or young. You may see the former as a more cogent point here. I completely disagree.

Tyson was made for Foreman. Are you proposing that Foreman "was made" for Tyson?

 

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Actually I think Foreman was made for Tyson, I believe I posted my reasons earlier in this thread.

 

I have to keep hearing it to believe it!

 

good idea. willl do.

 

I wouldn't say that Foreman was made for Tyson, but I think he had a style that would enable Tyson to land some big shots on him early and cleanly. I concede that Foreman was physically stronger than Tyson - Tyson's not going to push George back or outwrestle the guy. Tyson would be landing clean, hard shots. Maybe Foreman could take them and weather the storm, but I have my doubts. Tyson was not that easy to hit, and Foreman tended to throw rather crude, looping punches, the types of punches that a guy like Tyson could easily evade.

And as far as Tyson being made for Foreman; I just don't see it. A quick-fisted boxer with devastating power in both hands and a tight defense would not be what I would call a fighter made to order for George. George looked awesome against stationary targets; guys who weren't the most mobile or elusive. Tyson would be hard to hit for George; he wouldn't come out straight up and stiff like Ken Norton or wide open and one dimensional like Joe Frazier. Big difference!

 

Tyson would be pushed off balance by Foreman, it's not about "pushing him out of range", he'd simply be shoved back, and off-balance, and Foreman would rain thunderous blows at him, he'd be bullied. Foreman would be holding-and-hitting, shoving, rabbit punching, he'd ruin Tyson.

Also, I dispute the idea that Holyfield purely out-maneveured and out-thought Tyson.
Look at the fight, it's just as much two guys slugging, wrestling and rough-housing each other as it is a "boxing display". Holyfield's strategy and tactics were a lot about brute strength and toughness, he's remarkably flat-footed and brutish in this fight.

 

Foreman's shots are going to connect on Tyson. Tyson's head movement and weaving motions would not be as effective as you believe if he is off balance and if Foreman is throwing his typical unorthodox shots that are not easy to read.

There are few HWs as evasive as Ali -even at 32- and Foreman was connecting on him. In his prime and in a better ring, Ali would have tried to be mobile -which is the only real way to evade George's shots. Tyson would be both in range and bullied -he's gonna get hit.

Tyson wasn't Willie Pep!

 

Absolutely. In fact, it's fair to say that Holyfield "bullied" him.

 

Well, Ali wasn't a powerful puncher, so it would be much easier for George to simply walk forward against Ali than it would be for him to do that against Tyson. When you are not as concerned about the incoming punches, it's much easier for you to take liberties.

I still get this whole "George is just going to walk out and push Tyson around and bully him and take him out of his gameplan." It's as if Tyson is just going to walk out and run into this brick wall and then do nothing else. I think many people are underestimating Tyson's speed and delivery. Just as George threw unconventional shots as you say, Tyson threw punches from angles and the punches came in bunches. The perfect way to hit a guy like Foreman. And Foreman's punch was hard for sure, but was it any harder than a single punch thrown from Ruddock or Bonecrusher? Just as Tyson was no Willie Pep, George Foreman was not an outstanding combination puncher. I seriously doubt George would be able to land more than one punch at a time on Tyson; and Tyson have proven his chin against some heavy-handed fighters. You don't beat Tyson like Thomas Hearns did to Duran - with a single bomb!

And I'm not so sure how much of a bully Foreman would be against a fast, powerful fighter like tyson. Ron Lyle had Foreman backing up and even dancing a few times. Scott Ledoux was holding his own against George pretty good until he got bombed out. It's very possible that George might have been rendered gun shy when he realized how fast Tyson's punches were and how quickly Tyson could counterpunch.

 

I find the Hearns-Duran point strange, Duran had a very good chin. You get caught, you get caught. Especially against a puncher like Hearns, i would say the same of Foreman respective to his division.I don't see this fight seperated by a lot either way. But one obvious point is that Tyson was a bully and coming up against one of the most physically strong fighters in history, would have demoralizing effects on tyson in my view. There is an argument that Tyson's movement, combinations, defense were a lethal combination and would bamboozle George, but to me it's weaker than the other alternative. Tyson never brought that game against top fighters. Based on history i see Tyson getting bossed.