Mike Tyson vs Joe Frazier

He looked okay, against hand-picked opposition. Not peak, but devastating eventually anyway. He was levels above those two.

 

So I guess my question is, what evidence is there to suggest that Joe Frazier was past his prime outside of getting pummeled by a ferocious hitter in George Foreman? Joe was a notoriously slow starter even against modest opposition, so slow starts against the likes of Daniels or Stander aren't really indicative of anything.

 

Yes I agree. On one hand I get annoyed by the silly censorship which I think causes more problems than it solves by treating people like infants, on the other hand many if some of the the posters were left to their own devices it could actually be worse. I have actually gone long periods of time without posting or looking at this site.

The lack of civility and poor manners with some people apparently equate to being tough or an authority obviously gets tiresome. In particular, there is a genre of posters who become personally insulting of those who do not share their opinions the way that they would never do in person or suggest they find another sport to follow etcetera who I find particularly annoying. It strikes me as being particularly weak. The internet provides a way to share information and experiences there were none imagined when I first became involved with the sport and yet there are those who cannot resist being tools.

I have also not taken the time to find better alternatives. On the other hand , There are some people who have particular insight for who has thoughtful insights which challenge my opinions.

Please let me know if you can recommend any other good sites.

 

It was noted by those that were closest to him. Ken Norton and Eddie futch discussed it. Yancey Durham wanted him to retire prior to the Foreman fight.

 

The evidence :
- He was 10 pounds heavier than his prime weight.
- He'd spent 2 weeks in hospital suffering severe fatigue and severe high blood pressure
- His eyesight was failing, due to cataracts in his eye getting worse
- His face was swelling up easier
- He was 29 years old, getting on for a fighter of his style, he'd had a lot of hard fights
- He looked slower, heavier, less mobile
- He took a lot of time off and chose hand-picked opponents for 2 years.
etc.

But people can call him PRIME if they want, that's fair.
He was still regarded as the best in the world, was undefeated,and was even favoured clearly to see off the challenge of Foreman.
prime, past prime, whatever.
Depends on what the standards are.

 

That's interesting. There is a lot of revisionist history in the sport of Boxing though. Were these discussions between Norton and Futch noted at the time or was it only made public after Frazier was taken apart by Foreman? How often do we hear fighters and trainers leading up to fights laud their preparation only to then come up with a myriad of excuses if they lose -- claiming that the preparation was all wrong or "something wasn't right"? I'm just playing devil's advocate.

 

A sizable list of issues there.

Is it not possible that Frazier purposely weighed in heavier than he had previously so that he could compete physically with George Foreman? Foreman was a huge Heavyweight for the time. Maybe, just maybe, Frazier and his team thought those extra pounds would allow him to weather George's shots a little bit better?

At what point in time had he spent those two weeks in hospital -- was this during his preparation or afterwards?

And out of curiosity Unforgiven, do you believe any version of Joe would have defeated Foreman?

 

You're right to be sceptical.
But in the case of Joe Frazier, the balance of probability suggests it's true to me.
Just look at him. Look at the punishment he absorbed prior, and during the Ali fight.
He's a human being after all.

His 2 week stay in hospital after the Ali fight was well covered in the press at the time, and some reports even expressed fear he was dying.
He had severe exhaustion, high blood pressure, according to the doctors, who were probably playing it down if anything.

Swarming full-on pressure fighters who start out at 20 or 21 rarely last until they are 30 anyway, just based on the energy they exert on themselves. Compounded by vicious tough fights, at heavyweight, it's likely they will be done within a few years at the top.

In all probability, Frazier was way off 100% against Foreman.

 

Based on all of the points you've made, I would be inclined to agree.

 

Frazier was never the same after his first bout with Ali. Just lacked the sharpness, timing and speed of the man who fought Ali in 71.

 

No, he was heavy against Daniels and Stander too. 215 - 217.

He got lighter for Bugner and Ali after the Foreman loss. But never down to the 203 to 206 mark he was at his best. By Manila in 1975 he was back up to 215, and 224 against Foreman in 1976.

He probably just wasn't training as hard or as long, because his body probably had more wear and tear.
Either way, he was best at 205.

After the Ali fight in 1971. Immediately after.
It's not normal to be hospitalized for so long. I'd advise any fighter who needs 2 weeks rest in hospital after a 15 round heavyweight fight to seriously consider retirement.
It suggests he was hurt. Damage like that stays with a person.

The short answer :
NO.

 

Thanks for addressing all of my questions so thoroughly, Unforgiven. I am not new to the sport by any means but somehow I never got round to studying Joe Frazier's career in depth. Inexplicable really when you consider that short, compact punchers are my favourite fighters from an aesthetics point of view.

 

Yeah, I call everyone a "troll" who disagrees with me, even though I just got finished calling Nighttrain a good poster. And are you not doing the same thing with me, even though you have no proof otherwise!? It's just sad seeing you stroke off Wass and Swag, the notorious Tyson hate crew.

 

Was that supposed to be funny?

Not really. Just correcting your unbalanced views in every Tyson thread. Calling it stalking makes you sound like a female. Are you?

Sometimes you make good points, but mostly I'm just highlighting the obvious Tyson hate that we've been over before. If you keep it up than so shall I. :good

 

it is irrelevant and stupid.. 2 different versions of tyson...