You want to use the Mathis version of Tyson? The guy that had 1.5 minutes of boxing under his belt in nearly 5 years? Have you any idea how ludicrous this analogy is? Frazier met precisely one top tier puncher who used him as a yo yo. ps I've read the Ring it relied on punch stats and compu box , very misleading.
Heres a short simple explaination in a match up that really doesn't need a book written on it bc anyone with boxing sense could see this is a perfect fight for Tyson to win. Most trainers THINK they know about matches ...this guy actually does. I have yet to see him sound like he is clueless like many fighters and trainers with no depth of knowledge in the sport. This content is protected Frazier is lucky to see mid rounds in this one...it probably goes 3 or 4 on Fraziers best day.
Okay mcvey give me some reasons not blind opinions on your part. I gave 5 clear to understand references comparing Tyson and Frazier with comparable opponents, situations and similar mental and physical opponents. And I added Ring Magazine (the Boxing Bible) review of this fight. Your answer is to throw out Tyson/Mathias Jr. and excuse why Tyson looked bad in this fight saying it was ring inactivity while ignoring that the styles may have made it similar at any time of Tyson's career. So give me another fight film to look at again with anyone close to Frazier's style. You ignored the mental part of this which any real Super Fight fighter is going to have to deal with leading up to this type of fight and again the only thing remotely close to the Frazier-Ali hype and pressure buildup was Holyfield/tyson II. Mike flunked that to and Teddy Atlas said Tyson ALWAYS was mentally weak it didn't develop later. You tossed out Ring Magazine with the wave of a hand, just because its real experts (which your not), picked Frazier so you decided to just dismiss the statisitical reasons they picked Frazier as 'very misleading'. I lIke you to counter point my 5 reasons for picking Frazier. And if feather punching Mathias Jr isn't the best comparison then give me another fight Tyson fought with a style like he face with Frazier? Tell me why Tyson may not face a melt down against a fighter who is not going to be intiminated and who is going to hit back and hot back hard.
1.Tyson faced punchers who hit harder than Frazier without going down Ruddock,Bruno,Smith for example.Frazier faced one puncher comparable to them and was bounced around like a beach ball 2.Frazier had power only in his left hook.Tyson had two fisted power . 3.Tyson had a better chin than Frazier 4.Tyson had faster hands than Frazier. 5.Tyson was bigger than Frazier. 6.Tyson had better punch variety than Frazier. 7.Frazier met two crowders Quarry and Bonavena ,both inferior to Tyson in every way. 8. Quarry was smaller did not have Tyson's speed or power hence Frazier was able to gradually overwhelm him stopping him on his feet in both fights. 9.Bonavena dropped Frazier twice in their first meeting giving him hell along the way. 10.Bonavena was 200lbs slow ,and cumbersome Tyson was far superior to him in every department. 11. Frazier met two great fighters in5 fights his record against them is 1-4. 12.Frazier was kept away from punchers by Durham, they took the Foreman fight because of their believe it was better to get George before he acquired polish and experience, they came badly unstuck. 13.Against the only super puncher he met Frazier did not win a single round in two fights . 14.Frazier was very, very good at what he did,the trouble was he couldn't do anything else,he only knew one way to fight. 15.I can confidently disregard the Mathis[not Mathias,]fight because of Tyson's inactivity. 16.Frazier met one great puncher in2 fights his record against him is 0-2. 17. Frazier could not floor plodding Bonavena in either of their fights.Ellis,Folley,Ali all managed to do so and Ali ko'd him 18.The best fighter Frazier actually knocked out is ex light heavyweight Doug Jones. 19.Quarry,Mathis,Chuvalo,were on their feet when they were stopped,Ramos quit,Ellis was retired. 20.Frazier failed to face the following punchers though they were rated in his era; Foster,Liston,Urtain,Garcia,Lyle ,Liston,Norton,Shavers,Martin.Do you think thid is just coincidence? 21.Frazier defended his title against two unranked journeymen refusing to face either of his top two challengers for 2 years. 22.Mathis lasted less than three rounds against a ring rusty Tyson what do you think you are achieving by mentioning his name? 23.Trevor Berbick a durable heavy tried to meet Tyson head on and was KTFO! 24.Ditto Bruno x2 25.You mentioned experts regarding the Ring's selection of the winner of this fight the only man involved in the match -up was Lee Groves whom I do not regard as an expert ,he cherry picked various fights and collated their compu box stats.For example he included Ron Stander for Frazier,Stander was an unranked trial horse,he left out the first Bonavena fight in which Frazier was knocked down twice and badly shook up. 26.Groves relied heavily on Frazier getting past the early rounds and accelerating down the finish.It is far from a given he would survive the early rounds against a rampant Tyson.I personally do not think he would. 27. Compu Box has never and will never be able to give a definitive opinion on the out come of mythical or actual fights simply because it makes no allowance for the type of punches landed ,in that respect it is similar to amateur boxing. 28.You base you argument solely on two points .A.Box stats which anyone with even a perfunctory knowedge of boxing knows are notoriously unreliable and not indicative of how fights are actually scored.B.A quote from Atlas,hardly the most objective of Tyson observers that Tyson was mentally weak and therefore he would crumble against Frazier .Tyson was systematically beaten up by Douglas yet was still trying to rise and stuff his mouthpiece in. I could go on and probably round this up tp 50 points but you get the general idea.
Ok lets see GOOD THOSE POINTS REALLY WERE: 1.Tyson faced punchers who hit harder than Frazier without going down Ruddock,Bruno,Smith for example.Frazier faced one puncher comparable to them and was bounced around like a beach ball -THAT SAME FIGHTER (fOREMAN) WOULD HAVE ALSO BOUNCED TYSON AROUND LIKE A BEACH BALL. iTS A JOKE TO COMPARE BRUNO, RUDDOCK & SMITH (WHO MARVIS fRAZIER EVEN BEAT) TO FOREMAN 2.Frazier had power only in his left hook.Tyson had two fisted power . I WILL AGREE 3.Tyson had a better chin than Frazier THAT DEBATABLE - WHY WAS HE AFRAID TO FIGHT AN OLD FOREMAN? 4.Tyson had faster hands than Frazier. MAYBE SO DID ALI 5.Tyson was bigger than Frazier. GET A PAIR OF GLASSES -FRAZIER HAD LONGER REACH & WAS AN INCH TALLER -PRIME WITH PROBABLY WOULD HAVBE BEEN 212-215 FOR TYSON - 205-210 FOR FRAZIER 6.Tyson had better punch variety than Frazier. OKAY AND HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT RING MAGAZINE SAID FRAZIER WAS BETTER SLIPPING PUNCHS THAT TYSON. TYSON HAD BETTER VARIETY THAT DOUGLAS AND HOLYFIELD TO. DO YOU AGREE? 7.Frazier met two crowders Quarry and Bonavena ,both inferior to Tyson in every way. THE QUESTION IS HOW DID TYSON FAIR AGAINST CROWDERS? AND I AGREE THEY WERE NOT THE EQUAL OF TYSON OTHER THAN THAT BOTH HAD MORE HEART THAT TYSON AND BOTH FOUGHT BAD WHEN HURT RATHER THAN FOLD LIKE TYSON. 8. Quarry was smaller did not have Tyson's speed or power hence Frazier was able to gradually overwhelm him stopping him on his feet in both fights. WHICH IS WHAT RING MAGAZINE THINKS HE DO TO TYSON 9.Bonavena dropped Frazier twice in their first meeting giving him hell along the way. YES IN FRAZIER'S 11TH FIGHT WHO WAS TYSON FIGHTING ION HIS 11TH FIGHT BUDDY? 10.Bonavena was 200lbs slow ,and cumbersome Tyson was far superior to him in every department. YOUR WASTING SPACE AND REPEATING YOURSELF. I NEVER USED BONAVENA FOR AN EXAMPLE BUT NOW THAT YOU MENTIONED HIM HOW ABOUT THE FACT FRAZIER WON JUST ABOUT EVERY ROUND OF THEIR REMATCH WHEN HE WAS IN HIS PRIME, NOT WHEN HE WAS IN HIS 11TH FIGHT? 11. Frazier met two great fighters in5 fights his record against them is 1-4. WOW YOUR WHAT I CALL AN INTELLETUAL RACIST. YOU PAINT THE PICTURE AS IF THIS FAVORS YOUR FIGHTER AND HOPE NOBODY REALLY THINKS! TYSON'S RECORD AGAINST ALI AND FOREMAN WOULD HAVE BEEN 0-5 12.Frazier was kept away from punchers by Durham, they took the Foreman fight because of their believe it was better to get George before he acquired polish and experience, they came badly unstuck. NO, DURAHM DID NOT WANT THIS FIGHT BECAUSE THERE WAS 3 MILLION TO MAKE IN A REMATCH WITH ALI. FRAZIER WANTED IT BECAUSE HE REGARDED FOREMAN LIGHTLY. I AGREE IT WAS MISTAKE BUT I STILL WONDER WHAT HAPPENS IF FOREMAN WAS NOT ALLOWED TO SHOVE FRAZIER ALL OVER THE RING. WHY DID MERCANTE WARN HIM FOR IT IN THE SECOND ROUND? 13.Against the only super puncher he met Frazier did not win a single round in two fights . INTELLECTUAL RACIST COMMENT AGAIN. TYSON WOULDN'T HAVE EITHER. 14.Frazier was very, very good at what he did,the trouble was he couldn't do anything else,he only knew one way to fight. WELL THAT ONE WAY WOULD HAVE BEATEN BUSTER DOUGLAS WOULDN'T IT? 15.I can confidently disregard the Mathis[not Mathias,]fight because of Tyson's inactivity. NO YOU CAN'T BECAUSE IT WAS A STYLE PROBLEM NOT A RING RUST ISSUE. 16.Frazier met one great puncher in2 fights his record against him is 0-2. ONCE MORE YOUR WASTING SPACE AND REPEATING YOUR SELF YOU ALREADY SAID THIS (#11) MAYBE TO YOU IT LOOKS GOOD TO KEEP COMING UP WITH THE SAME THINGS. TYSON WOULD HAVE BEEN 0-2 AS WELL WITH A PRIME FOREMAN AND I DOUBT HE HAVE THE GUTS TO KEEP GETTING UP. HE WOULD DECIDE TO STAY DOWN.
17. Frazier could not floor plodding Bonavena in either of their fights.Ellis,Folley,Ali all managed to do so and Ali ko'd him YES STYLES MAKE FIGHTS BUT UNTIL THE 15TH ROUND TKO OF BONEVENA HE HAD GIVEN ALI MORE TROUBLE THAT HE DID FRAZIER IN THEIR SECOND FIGHT. 18.The best fighter Frazier actually knocked out is ex light heavyweight Doug Jones. ANOTHER SLEIGHT OF HAND WASTE OF A NUMBER. LETS OUT IT THIS WAY INSTEAD-THE BEST FIGHTER FRAZIER BEAT WAS ALI (AND ALMOST DID IT TWICE) TYSON WOULD HAVE A COMPLETE MENTAL COLLAPSE IF HE FOUGHT ALI 19.Quarry,Mathis,Chuvalo,were on their feet when they were stopped,Ramos quit,Ellis was retired. MAN YOU MEED A LITTLE HISTORY HERE : MATHIAS WAS OUT, CHUVALO HAD BONES IN HIS FACE BROKEN IN SEVERAL PLACES, QUARRY WAS BUTCHERED. IF CHUVALO AND QUARRY WERE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE THEY COULD HAVE BEEN KILLED IF IT WAS FIGHT TO THE FINISH! 20.Frazier failed to face the following punchers though they were rated in his era; Foster,Liston,Urtain,Garcia,Lyle ,Liston,Norton,Shavers,Martin.Do you think thid is just coincidence? OKAY WISE GUY ONCE AGAIN THE FACTS: WHICH ONE EARNED A TITLE SHOT? FRAZIER DUCKED NO ONE. LYLE, FOSTER AND SHAVERS ALL COULD HAVE FOUGHT FRAZIER IF IF IF THEY COULD HAVE BEATEN THE REAL TOP CONTENDER OF THIS TIME PERIOD JERRY QUARRY. QUARRY DEMOLISHED SHAVER IN ONE ROUND, DESTROYED FOSTER IN 6 AND COMPLETELY SCHOOLED LYLE! YOUR ARGURMENT WOULD HAVE SOME MERIT IF FRAZIER AVOIDED QUARRY BUT HE DIDN'T. (iNTERESTINGLY EVEN FOREMAN ADMITTED HE AVOIDED QUARRY). NORTON AND MARTIN WERE BOTH SPARRING PARTNERS OF FRAZIER AND NEITHER DID WELL WITH FRAZIER IN SPARRING AND YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE IN A REAL FIGHT? URTAIN RAN HIS RECORD TO SOMETHING LIKE 20-0 IN EUROPE FIGHTING NOBODIES BEFORE REAL FIGHTERS PUT HIM FAR OUT OF CONTENTION. LISTON WAS NEVER A TOP CONTENDER TO FIGHT FRAZIER AND WHEN HE GOT CLOSE HE WAS STARCHED BY A MARTIN LEFT HOOK (QUICK QUIZ-WHO HAD ONE OF BOXINGS ALL TIME BEST LEFT HOOKS?). MARTIN THEN SADLY HAD TO RETIRE DUE TO AN EYE INJURY. FRAZIER DID NOT AVOID HIM. GARCIA?? YOUR SO DEPERATE YOU MENTION HIM?? YEA EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT A PUNCHER HE WAS 21.Frazier defended his title against two unranked journeymen refusing to face either of his top two challengers for 2 years. PRIME FRAZIER WAS 1967-1971. AND JUST TO ENLIGHTEN YOU A BIT MORE YOU MENTIONED SHAVERS IN #20-ONE OF THOSE JOURNEYMEN (STANDER HAD BEATEN SHAVERS) 22.Mathis lasted less than three rounds against a ring rusty Tyson what do you think you are achieving by mentioning his name? STYLES TELL YOU THINGS MY FRIEND. TYSON HAD TROUBLE WITH THE STYLE BUT HERE AGAIN IS WHERE YOUR A HYPOCRITE, YOU USE A LOT OF NON-PRIME FRAZIER DATA TO SUP[PORT YOUR CONCLUSTIONS BUT YOU DON'T LIKE IT WHEN I USE THIS ONE? 23.Trevor Berbick a durable heavy tried to meet Tyson head on and was KTFO! 24.Ditto Bruno x2 IN THE WORDS OF JOHN McENROE "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS' BERBICK AND ESPECIALLY BRUNO WERE PETIFIED OF TYSON. AND ITS A JOKE OR YOUR IGNORANCE TO THINK THEY FOUGHT LIKE FRAZIER. MATHIAS HOWEVER DID FIGHT A SIMILAR STYLE. AND SINCE YOU JUST OPENED THE DOOR LET ME REMIND YOU ONE OF THE BRUNO FIGHTS OCCURED AFTER TYSON BEAT MATHAIS. SO CAN I USED THAT NOW?
25.You mentioned experts regarding the Ring's selection of the winner of this fight the only man involved in the match -up was Lee Groves whom I do not regard as an expert ,he cherry picked various fights and collated their compu box stats.For example he included Ron Stander for Frazier,Stander was an unranked trial horse,he left out the first Bonavena fight in which Frazier was knocked down twice and badly shook up. WELL WOW WHO IS CHERRY PICKING NOW? YOU WANTED TO USE SHAVERS AS A EXAMPLE OF WHO FRAZIER DUCKED WITH BOTH STANDER AND QUARRY BEAT HIM? 26.Groves relied heavily on Frazier getting past the early rounds and accelerating down the finish.It is far from a given he would survive the early rounds against a rampant Tyson.I personally do not think he would. OKAY I CAN RESPECT THAT OPINION I ALREADY STATED ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN BETWEEN TWO PUNCHERS. FRAZIER AND TYSON WERE TWO OF MY FAVORITE FIGHTERS. I THINK DON KING RUINED MIKE TYSON. I THINK IF KEVIN ROONEY HAD NOT BEEN REPLACED AS TRAINER AND IF CUS D'AMARO HAD LIVED ANOTHER 5 YEARS WE BE HAVING A DIFFERENT CONVERSATION. TYSON NEVER PEAKED HE FLATTENED OUT AND NEVBER BECAME THE FIGHTER I THOUGHT HE COULD HAVE BEEN. THE HIGHLIGHT OF HIS CAREER WAS A QUCIK KNOCKOUT OF MICHAEL SPINKS. THE HIGHLIGHTS OF FRAZIER CAREER WAS THE ALI FIGHTS. ALL THE INTAGIBLES GO TO FRAZIER WHO BEAT A FAR SUPERIOR FIGHTER THAN TYSON EVER BEAT. AND UNLIKE TYSON FRAZIER SHOWED AN ABILITY TO FIGHT BACK WHEN HURT. HEART MEANS A LOT IN BOXING. 27. Compu Box has never and will never be able to give a definitive opinion on the out come of mythical or actual fights simply because it makes no allowance for the type of punches landed ,in that respect it is similar to amateur boxing. MAYBE BUT ITS ONE OF THE TOOLS WE CAN USE. THE ONLY REASON U THROW IT OUT IS IT DISAGREED WITH YOU.
28.You base you argument solely on two points .YOU NEED TO COUNT BETTER. MY ARGUMENTS WERE BASED ON 5 FACTS NOT TWO, THEN LATER I ADDED THE RING ARTICLE. A.Box stats which anyone with even a perfunctory knowedge of boxing knows are notoriously unreliable and not indicative of how fights are actually scored.B.A YES YOUR RIGHT JUST LOOK AT THE TWO TRIPLE G/ALVAREZ FIGHTS I SUPPOSE IF YOU IGNORE BOX STATS THEN ALVAREZ REALLY DID WIN THOSE FIGHTS quote from Atlas,hardly the most objective of Tyson observers that Tyson was mentally weak and therefore he would crumble against Frazier .Tyson was systematically beaten up by Douglas yet was still trying to rise and stuff his mouthpiece in. ATLAS WAS A TRAINER FOR TYSON WHO HAD TO TALK HIM INTO FINISHING A FIGHT BECAUSE HIS OPPONENT KEEP GETTING UP. WHY CAN'T WE USE ATLAS? I could go on and probably round this up tp 50 points but you get the general idea. I GOT THE IDEA THAT YOU HAVE A COUPLE OF GOOD POINTS I AGREE WITH. THAT YOU SEEMED TO HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT ON OTHER OCCASIONS (YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF BOXING HISTORY DURING THE fRAZIER ERA, COMPARING BRUNO WITH FOREMAN IN ONE SENTENCE AND BRUNO WITH FRAZIER'S STYLE LATTER IS A RIDIULOUS EXAMPLE),AND THAT YOUR ATTEMPT TO SNOWBALL THE SAME ARGUMENTS IN MULTIPLE SENTENCES WAS A WASTE OF TIME, BUT THAT DOES LEAD ME TO BELIEVE YOU COULD GET TO 50
1.You are giving an opinion not a fact.Frazier Jnr beating Smith does not reduce Smith's power. in any way he hit Tyson flush with it in the last round and nothing happened. 2.No Argument 3.Tyson had a better chin than Frazier, this is not debatable he proved it against top punchers. Frazier fell at the first fence on this ,he was dropped twice by Bonavena,dropped by Mike Bruce and bounced multiple times by Foreman. Tyson facing Old Foreman would have been a high risk small reward fight which because of their respective styles would always be a dangerous fight for Tyson.Same reason. 4.Tyson was faster than Frazier again not debatable. 5.Tyson was bigger than Frazier not debatable.Tyson was 221.25lbs at the age of twenty when he ko'd Berbick for the title. He was variously; 217 Ruddock 219.25 Williams 218 Bruno 218.25 Spinks 218 Thomas 221 Tucker Frazier never scaled any of these weights when prime and fit TOT Frazier Chest 44 Biceps 15 Neck 18 Tyson Chest 43.5 Biceps 17 Neck 20 Its absurd why you are even arguing this ! 6.Tyson had better punch variety than Frazier definitely. 7.No one in his right mind tried to crowd Tyson those that stood their ground like Berbick and Bruno were smashed quickly 8. Bonavena dropped Frazier twice, he is the nearest facsimile to Tyson Frazier fought ,he went the distance twice with Joe without being floored or in any trouble.Tyson was the world champion at 20 years old so he was hardly protected and he didn't defend his title aginsr 2 unranked journeymen either!Frazier was 26 when he won the title. No I don't agree that Frazier was better at slipping punches than Tyson and the Ring didn't say that, one man, Lee Groves did and all his conclusions come for a bunch of stats on Compu Box.if that was the be and end all we wouldn't have or need judges would we? 9.Answered by the last point. 10.Tyson was champ at 20 Frazier at 26 Tyson faced a bunch of top punchers Frazier 1 who was the more protected? 11.If you are going to use a made up term like intellectual racist at least try and spell it correctly! Now that you're resorting to insults I'm gone.You keep slavishly getting your opinion spoon fed you by Lee Groves.
I disagree you can clearly win a debate with another poster.I began debating with him,but have realised he has a closed mind and swallows any old **** wholesale ,so no point wasting further time.