Mike Tyson vs Larry Holmes

What would you consider his best win, before he went to prison?

 

Not sure, Thomas proved he was on top of his game when he came back from being almost knocked out to win rounds and completely disrupt Tyson before Tyson bombed him. Tony Tucker was really really good that night. Ruddock was never really that good but he had great power and a bad style for Tyson not sure if he was better than those other two. Holmes was presumably still a very good fighter in 88 an came in closer to his prime weight but didnt show me how much he had left because he was spoiling and surviving before he got stopped.
Tubbs was a very good underrated fighter as well, he may have been overweight against Tyson so that win could be picked apart by someone who was inclined to make Tysons resumee look bad
So probably Tucker

 

Tyson ALWAYS beats Holmes. Peep the 5:10 mark...

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It's interesting you say Tucker. I have always felt Tyson's win over Holmes (even a past prime and inactive Holmes) was perhaps his best pre-prison win. Tucker comes a close second.

The problem I have with the Tucker bout is that TNT was effectively fighting one-handed and this was evident throughout the fight. Tucker had also not been fighting the same level of competition that Tyson had, up to that point.

It's hard to tell if Tubbs was in condition or not. His weight fluctuated and he always looked fat, to me. He certainly looked static in the feet and this was like tying your own noose against Tyson.

Whilst I would agree that the competition was reasonably good for Tyson, at that time, I think if we were able to bring a peak Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield and perhaps Bowe, into the same timeframe, in the late 80s, I'd rate them higher than any of the competition Tyson actually fought. I can't see those bouts being the run-of-the-mill KO or wide UD wins that Tyson routinely clocked up there.

Pure speculation, I know but, not beyond reasonable.

 

The Tubbs victory was impressive to me.Tubbs is a good fighter and Tyson dispatched him like nothing

 

Maybe maybe not but Peak Homes Holyfield Lewis Bowe sretches never existed at the same time or even reasonably close. Holmes peak was around 1980 and Lewis' was the late 90s. I think peak Tyson decisions bowe or stops him late im pretty confident about that. Peak Lewis is 50/50 but Tyson beats peak Holyfield
Holyfield while older in 96 was a much smarter and defensively responsible fighter than he was at his peak.
Tucker used both hands until after the 4th i think it was and Tyson already had the Upper hand there, looked like it was ging to be a tremendous fight but Tucker stopped using his right and went into survival mode and Tyson basically just outjabbed and dominated him for the rest of the bout but never showed the urgency after that.

 

Fair shout on the Tucker fight.

 

No way, a 42 year old Holmes went the distance with Holyfield and Tyson failed in 2 fights. Larry in his prime would have fed him hard jabs and Tyson always has trouble with people who fight back

 

The early 80s Holmes beats Tyson late stoppage.

 

Oh cmon, that a lazy generalisation of Tyson to say he always had trouble with people who fight back. Plenty have tried to fight back against him during his career, some maybe foolishly but that in itself, wasn't enough to give Tyson much trouble in the majority of cases.You think he would have had trouble with Spinks if he stood and tried to fight back? No, you still have to have the right tools, skill set and mindset like Holyfield and Douglas had to fight back .... and be effective.

Having said that I do think a prime Holmes would be another that possesses those qualities that could allow him to fight back and be successful against Tyson.

 

Holmes at 29, Tyson at 21.

Tyson spends a good deal of the first round like he tries to do for the three after: basically charge Holmes, with the latter tying him up expertly (though not without some hyperattentiveness showing on the face of Holmes in the clinches...Holmes is well aware of the savage wantonness of Tyson). From there Holmes keeps moving to his left and catching Mike on the way with the jab; at one point Tyson charges directly into one and nearly goes to one knee. Angered, he throws a series of incredible barrage-combinations, with only the last out of a dozen shots grazing Holmes' face. Though glancing, it was enough to shake Larry up and he holds...but you can see his face changing from rocked to grimly focused and determined (see select rounds of the Norton fight, plus Shavers I). It's safe to say that overall Holmes just plain aggravates Tyson in the early rounds, the latter man getting repeatedly hit with choice jabs, extremely fast combinations, and spectacular foot work. Holmes' punch isn't really hurting Tyson at this point, however the sheer volume and angles of the blows serve to blunt Mike's assault and keep him from getting set for big punches. The only clean punches to the head Tyson's landing in these rounds is the jab, and it is not inconsiderable.

In the middle of the fourth round Holmes lands a long straight right with perfect leverage and Tyson's knees quake again. The younger fighter backs up for the first time in the fight, but gets back to his original (failed) plan of earnestly pursing/attempting-to-swarm-but-instead-getting-tied-up-and-*****-jabbed. It must be mentioned that both Mike and Larry get in some terrific body punches during these rounds (much of Tyson's scoring in that area occured during grey zones in the clinches).

In round five Holmes gets cute and begins firing with both hands almost at his hips while dancing. After Larry misses a double jab Tyson practically takes Holmes' head off with the right...not quite Shavers, but bitching off Cooney hard; incredibly, Larry still has enough presence of mind to tie Mike, up but his eyes are going in and out and people are surprised upon viewing the fight later that Mike didn't pull his usual stunts like shoving his mostly-out opponent onto the floor. Upon the break Tyson floors Larry with a hook-right combination, but for all intents and purposes it was the first right that had him most of the way already. Holmes is up after five, shaking his head but not really looking right until eight, and, after pissing Tyson off with a lunging-but-lucky pole-axe jab he makes the mistake of dropping his left and gets floored again by a colossal right hook that, though it landed a bit after the punch's strongest point, was more than weighty enough to do the trick. Lying flat on his back, it takes the count of two for Larry's eyes to come back. At four he gets onto one knee and the look of patient concentration and sober self-chastisement is evident as he waits the count of nine to stand up. The ref is looking at him very closely. Tyson comes in like a shotgun round and Holmes catches him with the same right uppercut that ruined Mike Weaver, the one he missed due to old reflexes in their actual real time fight (and historically his most fight-changing yet-not-usually-accurate punch). The shorter man hits the canvas with an audible thump, for the first five seconds completely immobile and empty-eyed on his side on the canvas. He stirs at six and then barely, shakily makes it to his feet at nine. The ref isn't liking what's in (or, more accurately, what's not) in Tyson's eyes and is about to stop the fight when the bell rings for round's end. (sidenote: some ringside experts will later opine the fight should have been ended by the referee and/or doctor between rounds, as Tyson had to be guided and escorted to his corner and looks, as Larry Merchant put it "possibly in need of emergency assisstance". ) Both the ref and Holmes are watching Mike closely between rounds, but Mike surprisingly looks a bit more cautious but fine when he gets up from the stool at the bell.

Rounds six and seven showcase a calm, calculating Holmes and a Tyson who looks a bit shell-shocked and zombie-esque, though the latter (to his credit) does continue to take the fight to the former (lots of holding in these rounds, Holmes showing his experience). Larry doesn't even look hurt anymore, just careful, and the jab is really bothering Tyson, making it nearly impossible for him to get grounded for the big punches and swelling his face up. A seventh round uppercut from Holmes and Tyson's left eye gets thumbed. The eye begins closing.

Round eight has Tyson especially motivated and showing more competitiveness, landing a couple of very nice left hooks when Holmes makes the mistake of getting near the ropes; but for the most part Mike is still missing a lot of punches and eating the jab. Larry has trouble landing the right during the early part of the round, but soon makes Mike's eye gets much worse, with the swelling obviously hurting his vision. After getting grazed by a lunging Tyson right and then (of great necessity) holding, Holmes, looking a bit concerned, comes out of the break throwing four successive right crosses in a row, with three of them landing and the last of which has Tyson's eyes cloud over as he half retreats/half stumbles back from the viciousness of the attack. Tyson has to clutch onto Holmes like a life preserver,knowing he can't see the rights anymore but finishes the round. He's once again looking ragged upon going back to his corner, but decidedly nowhere near the half unconscious level of earlier.

In round nine there's more of the same Holmes stick-and-move but not dancing until the last minute, when Holmes lands yet another big uppercut, and had Tyson's knees quaking scarily The fuzzy Tyson walks into a jab and almost falls, but Holmes see he's not quite hurt enough to pull the finishing switch on and gets on his bicycle until the round ends, with Tyson eating his left again and again, looking like a beaten fighter. After the fight some commentators opine that Holmes was overly patient. Mike has nothing left, and some feel Larry carried him in these final rounds as payback for the knockdown round.

In round ten Tyson looks clearer but his legs are pretty much gone...he looks a bit like Earnie Shavers did toward the end of Earnie's second fight with Larry. Kind of just stumbling around the ring. Holmes is tired as well and, though he isn't dancing much now, it's obvious he does still have some snap to his legs and punches. He stays very cautious, jabbing and tying Mike up for the most part. Mike doesn't land an effective blow throughout the round and is several times made to look like a stumbling fool, Holmes playing around with Tyson's head to further disorient and anger him.

In round eleven Holmes repeats what happened in ten, and according to the judges hasn't lost a round (the knockdown round was scored 9-9); toward the end of the round Larry ducks a haymaker, then staggers Tyson with a right. Larry starts winding up and connects with a right-left but the bell sounds. Mike was the aggressor, as he was through the majority of the fight, but he once again failed to land anything significant, and has had practically no control over this fight.

In the twelfth Tyson is getting his head snapped back by jabs. Holmes misses an uppercut and astonishingly gets hit by a desperation Tyson left that practically turns him around. Pissed off, Larry unleashes one of the most stunning combinations in boxing history, landing eight out of ten straight punches on Tyson from all angles, including two body shots that have Tyson groaning and trying to hold, but gets pushed into his own corner. Larry lands a right to the body-right to the head combination, follows with a well timed left uppercut, misses a pair of straight rights, connects with a smashing overhand that puts Mike's eyes back in the Land of the Lost, and the referee steps in and stops the fight without complaint.

 

Larry often fought best when hurt. He fought his heart out after Tyson knocked him down...but we're talking grandpa vs. young lion.

Also, Tyson would have eaten the right uppercut sooner or later on his way to trying to finish things. Holmes' right uppercut is the closest thing he had to a knockout punch, or at least a fight-changing power punch.

 

A tricky one to call. Tyson has a dismal record in dogfights when he's been taken to deep waters where, you'd assume, a younger Holmes would be more than capable of taking him, too. I can accept that, for whatever reason, we weren't seeing the best Tyson against Douglas and Holyfield, but unlike some of his fanatical acolytes I'm not going to give him a pass and say that those fights aren't worth reading in to.

Larry had probably the best powers of recovery and recuperation of any Heavyweight champion - but he needed them a little too often for comfort! That's his problem here. Tyson was a much sharper and more composed finisher than a Norton, Shavers or Snipes, and if Holmes fights the way he did against Ken or has a bad lapse in concentration as he did against Earnie and Renaldo, that could be all she wrote for him here. Tyson could struggle against a world class jab as we know, and Holmes kept some dangerous fighters at bay with his...But none of them had Tyson's arsenal.

Tyson might have to get Holmes out of there early to win this. It could happen, but it takes a bit of a leap of faith. As I don't see this happening all that often, I guess I'd have to err towards Holmes here. They've both got the styles to give each other nightmares, but what sways me is that I've seen Holmes peel himself off the deck, fight through adversity, pull out a fight that's in the balance etc. Tyson pretty much the opposite. He's the only guy in my top ten Heavyweights who hasn't got up to win, or come through a war where the result looked in doubt, or won as the underdog etc. Against some of my other great Heavyweights, that wouldn't matter so much, based on styles, size etc. But against Holmes, I just feel it's too much of a leap of faith, which Tyson's record doesn't justify.

Holmes by late TKO, but I'm not calling that with any great confidence.

 

These are great points....but let's think of how Larry looked against Shavers the first time, Norton. I realize Mike was a better fighter (well, he didn't have the heart of a Norton) but I think those two fights show just how overwhelmed Mike would be. Just check out the first three rounds against Norton...who was punching and moving like that (besides Ali)? Watch how fast the punches come. As much of a freaky-great Porsche of a fighter coming in that Tyson was in his prime, how could he handle that many punches at that many angles? How about when Holmes came out in the fifth round of the Norton fight with those four straight rights out of nowhere? Tyson didn't do well at all with surprises.

That said, no question at all the Larry would have to do MUCH better than just four rounds against Mike. I mean, even thoroughly warmed up Larry got hit too much throughout his career, and Mike had an (Peter Lorre voice) eeeevilll right hand. So yeah, it's a tough call, for me it's down to

a) Larry was the type of boxer that Mike had major problems with, and if Tillis gave him that much trouble...I mean, Tillis was never even good enough to get a shot against Larry, and look who he lost to. And that's forgetting Douglas.

b) Larry could be at his most dangerous when hurt...Tyson was a loss once that happened.

c) Tyson (though in actuality an intelligent man) didn't fight intelligently. Hard to say that about Larry.

But hey, Larry's my favorite fighter and I probably still hold a grudge against Mike for beating him shortly after he (Larry) became a grandfather. So my opinion here is probably worth less than nothing on this subject.

 

I do not trust Tyson to beat any all-time great who was not chinny. So, yes, he beats Frazier, for instance, but he does not beat Holmes - whose style is all wrong for Tyson anyways.