Mike Tyson VS Sonny Liston!

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by OMGWTF, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. RockyJim

    RockyJim Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Both had the bully mentality...the first one to get really hurt...loses...
     
  2. Rex Tickard

    Rex Tickard Active Member Full Member

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    Why do people simply assume that Tyson's style is ideal for Liston when an equal or greater case can be made that the opposite is true? Tyson routinely bombed out or overwhelmed HWs who came to him or stood in front of him - and his opponents typically weighed 215-230 pounds, whereas Liston's opponents only occasionally reached 210-215 and often weighed under 200. Douglas beat Tyson using a ton of lateral movement - nothing like Liston would bring to the table.
     
  3. Rex Tickard

    Rex Tickard Active Member Full Member

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    This is an excellent, and grossly overlooked point in this thread IMO.

    Not only was Tyson very adept at slipping jabs and firing counters (just ask Truth Williams), but Liston had an awful habit of over-extending himself when he threw his jab and leaving his chin open. Only a handful of his own opponents had the capacity to take advantage of that flaw, but someone like Tyson would probably be perfect to capitalize on it.

    Also, no fighter ever stopped Tyson with just a jab - even against Douglas, he slipped most of Douglas' jabs in the early rounds, but was foiled by Douglas' lateral movement and rapid-fire combinations.

    Honestly, I don't understand why people keep pointing to Liston's jab as the decisive factor in this fight. If anything, his (over)reliance on his jab would be his undoing against Tyson's style.
     
  4. Rex Tickard

    Rex Tickard Active Member Full Member

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    A scrawny, fragile LHW busted Liston's jaw and later dropped him, and a limited CW KO'd Liston in 9, blah, blah, blah...

    See how easy that was. :good
     
  5. Rex Tickard

    Rex Tickard Active Member Full Member

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    How old was Foreman at that time? - 19, 20? Of course a bigger, more experienced ex-champ is going to push around a teenage pro novice.


    Liston was still on the way up and improving when he beat Williams the first time. He showed clear technical improvements in the rematch with Williams - hence the reason he took far less punishment. Liston showed his best form in the early '60s, heading into the Ali fights.
     
  6. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie banned

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    What actually is it with bully mentality and the one who gets hurts quits first?
    Early in his career Liston finished a fight with a broken hand.
    And Tyson has been KOd in the amateurs, got stunned by Bruno, got stunned by Tony Tucker (luckily for Tyson, Tuckers had was already damaged before the fight and the shot shattered his hand)
    They still went on.

    Against Holyfield Tyson snapped, only Liston would be the real quitter between the two...
    And Liston wasn't that hungry and young anymore
     
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  7. Azzer85

    Azzer85 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Very interesting comments there on Sonnys jab, now that you mention it, he did have a habit of over extending. You can just picture Tyson sneaking a left hook in ala Truth Williams

    Also, Douglas jab was much more fluid and he feinted a lot which befuddle Tyson, whereas Listons was more textbook jab jab jab
     
  8. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Tyson was much faster with his hands and his feet. He was more explosive with his punches as well. Liston had power and he was strong... but I think Tyson was just as strong and hit just as hard if not harder. When you combine that with the quickness and explosiveness Tyson had... very impressive. Tyson had good head movement and was hard to hit by slower fighters. Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis all had quick hands. Maybe they weren't quicker than Tyson, but they were quicker than Liston, and they were quicker than most (if not all) of the other guys Tyson fought. Chin? They both had good chins. Tyson was down vs. Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis. They were all good punchers with good speed. They all broke Tyson down before dropping him, and stopping him. Tyson was clearly past prime vs. Lewis. He was slightly faded vs. Holyfield, but so was Holyfield.

    Tyson was used to fighting guys bigger than himself. Liston was usually the bigger man, usually the much bigger man. He was a little taller than Tyson and had a much longer reach... but outjabbing somebody was never Tyson's plan. Tyson always had the shorter reach and that was fine with him. Tyson's plan is to bob and weave with quickness and make his opponent miss with his peek a boo defense while landing his big shots on the inside.

    I see Tyson's speed being a big problem.

    Liston had those 2 first round KO wins over the much smaller Patterson. He stopped Cleveland Williams in the 3rd and the 2nd round. Williams was considered big but really wasn't compared to the guys Tyson fought. Williams was C level at best. He stopped Folley in the 3rd who was a small HW. Machen was able to last the distance vs. Liston and give him some problems. Marty Marshall beat Liston 1 out of 3 and broke his jaw. Marshall weighed about 180 Lbs. and was far from great. The Marshall loss was very early in Liston's career as were the 2 close wins over Johnny Summerlin.

    I'll take Tyson by decision or late round TKO.
     
  9. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    Prime Tyson had issues with movers like most bangers. He could be exposed. If you stood there and traded with him sooner or later you were going to be hit, hurt, and stopped. Style wise Mike was predicatable. He going to come in and look for angles to slam home hard head shots. He did not throw downstairs all that often. when he did it was body head combination. He was not looking to soften you up for the later rounds. he wanted to be done ASAP. if you stuck around you normally took deep punishment.

    Prime Liston was a boxer puncher who was more effective as a boxer. He jabbed, ducked, slipped, moved away, counter-punched, and brawled if needed. He was as complete a fighter that has ever been. If you wanted to box he would be content to outbox you, if you wanted to bang he would be content to outbang you. Sonny had issues with the great mover in the Heavyweight division and one of the greatest movers in sports history. Other than that he was pretty much sound against most styles. His power was up there with Foreman and Tyson and Dempsey.

    I think Mike would try to come in hard but because Sonny is so good at slipping punches he would make Mike miss a lot. At the same time establishing his own jab space and timing. Because Sonny is not perfect on defense he will get hit. I don't See Tyson getting in bombs early so this one will go a while.

    I pick Sonny because he will start backing Mike up with his jab and stronger frame. Once you have Mike going backwards you can manage him better if you are an all-time great. I think Sonny KO's Mike in 11 suddenly and without a whole lot of warning. Mike will be in the fight for the duration but stylistically he is not of Liston's class. Also Liston has had success against Mike's Pee-a-boo style.
     
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  10. heavy_hands

    heavy_hands Guest

    foreman was 18 when he sparred with sonny so you can´t use this sparring session like solid proof of nothing

    tyson would win by ko, probably in 6 rounds, he was heavier prime vs prime, he was faster, more skilled, he had better chin he had better power, he was better puncher, he was better finisher, more aggresive, he was proved against bigger men, liston proved his power against smaller guys, i pick tyson here, he had better credentials.
     
  11. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    Styles make fights.

    Tyson and Liston have a similar record. 50 wins a piece. Tyson beat the small Heavyweight Mike Spinks just like Liston did with Patterson. Both folded big time under pressure against great champions greater than themselves.

    Tyson has 6 more Kayos but that does not mean he hit harder. After watching the styles of both fighters one would see imediately that Liston was more an accomplished boxer where Tyson only relied on his power.

    When Liston hurt his opponents they were just as finished as Mike's. Mike was more aggressive but he was not consistantly on the gas. He fought in spurts, and could be backed up and clinched down.

    Liston fought at beat guys that were considered big and good. Most of the fighters that Mike fought over 200 pounds weren't great either and the ones that were, beat him by KO. At his best Tyson was 215. Liston at his best was 211. Liston had a 84 inch reach and a great jab.

    In short Tyson's resume, skills and power are more than similar to Liston's with no great advantage to either.

    Styles make fights.
     
  12. heavy_hands

    heavy_hands Guest

    this comment is a pure partial trash... tyson did beat much more full sized hws than liston did, tyson had much better %ko, tyson looked harder puncher on the film, funny because u said that tyson did beat spinks just like liston di dbeat patterson? insinuating that tyson did beat a small champion... tyson defended his title against tons of guys who weighed more than 215 pounds like berbick(216), pinklon thomas(217), tucker(220), smith(235),bruno(230), ruddock 230... tyrel biggs,i guarantee you that bruno ruddock,and smith did hit as hard as lliston, and tyson took this type of power, but liston never was tested against a power like tyson´s,even spinks weighed 212 pounds when he faced tyson(the best "big " guy that liston did beat was cleveland williams who weighed 210-212..), patterson was a 188 pounder when he faced liston.. no comparison here. styles make fights? what styles? tyson was better in every department... liston was not foreman, he would not overpower tyson. and mike weighed 215-221 in his prime , liston weighed 208-212. pure trash!!!
     
  13. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    You think Mike Tyson beats Liston because he fought fighters that weighed more than Liston's opponents? These opponents weighed more and hit harder than Ali as well. Probably had better standard defense. See where I am going with this? Styles make fights.

    You guarantee that Smith, Bruno, and Ruddock hit harder than Liston. Really?

    Spinks that went down from one tap from Mike was as big and strong as Sonny "the big ugly bear" Liston. I don't think so.

    Despite the fact that Liston regularly boxed from behind the jab and counter-punched, Tyson, who never did this, in your opinion does even this better than Liston. Because Tyson "does everything better than Liston". Okay.

    Liston was a better boxer and puncher than everyone you named on this thread. He knocked out solid contender all throughout his career and is one of the best heavyweights of all-time. just like Tyson.
     
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  14. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Sonny Liston was a certified badass. He beat big guys, he beat smaller guys and he beat guys that ran from him, he beat guys that came to him. He had good punching technique behind a powerful left lead. His chin was tough and when he was at his peak he had plenty of heart and desire to win. He liked hurting people.

    I usually dont pick against Liston head to head.

    With that said I think Tyson is a huge problem for him. Mike Tyson came in with so much speed and power. He could make Sonny rush his attack and he may be fighting Tyson off him more than he was fighting him.

    Tyson could crack with both hands and he had a good punch variety. Liston may stop him in his tracks a few times but Mike was too fast.

    I think Tyson would stop Liston in 5 or 6 explosive rounds.
     
  15. sauhund II

    sauhund II Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Michael Gerard Tyson hits wayyyyyyy harder than that glorified journeyman Williams ...........and if Liston thinks Williams hits hard than he is in for a big surprise when he gets nailed by Tyson.

    People seem to forget how fast Tyson was....speed is power and he will beat the slow of foot and hand Liston all day long to the punch.

    If you pack it in not once but twice against a green light punching at that time nobody you are going to get starched by a prime Tyson.