MIKE TYSON...What COULD HAVE BEEN

Tyson would've been undefeated until he was at least 27-28 or so. He could've been a real terror in the 24-25 range, because with the proper team around him he could've continued technically improving from his 86-88 "actual/reality prime" until he started to lose his physical gifts.

He was bound to start fading early though, which is why I pegged him at 28 when it started to become really noticeable. He could well remain a force into his early 30s though, with discipline.

I think there's actually a good possibility that, if he retired before 35 or so, he could've been undefeated. A disciplined, primed, improved Tyson from 90-92 would've ****ed that era's Holyfield up IMO, and who else would be able to beat him? Lewis wasn't ready for a fight with Mike before 95-96 or so, but even then, a disciplined (albeit aged) Tyson could very well KO his heir apparent. Although...since history is changed, we could very well see a changed, if not entirely different, scene of early/mid 1990s contenders.

 

I don't see Mike losing any more than once until he starts to slow down, probably around 97. He would be definently in there against GREAT fighters, and any great loses eventually when you fight enough very good/great fighters. Guys like old Foreman, Moorer etc. I think Tyson makes mincemeat out of.

He'd have to compete with Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis. These are the biggest threats to him, and I'll break down how I see the fights going.

Bowe: Tyson's easiest fight out of all his best opponents. Bowe was there to be hit and while he had an iron will, and great chin, Bowe doesn't hit hard enough to trade with Tyson and his defense is far too leaky. He would be taken out in the early to mid rounds.

Holyfield-Very dangerous fight. We all saw Tyson fight Holyfield in 96 and lose in a very good fight by KO. But Tyson had massive ring rust going into this fight in taking 4 years off the sport, as well as barely even breaking a sweat in the fights he had after prison. Evander fought the perfect fight against Tyson, he roughed him up, hit him enough to make him know he was in a fight, and was able to survive the early rounds where the 90s Tyson was very, very dangerous. When Tyson started to slow down, Holyfield took over and finished him off. This Tyson was fighting primarily for the money however, and didn't have the eye of the tiger/stamina of his former self. Had Cus, Jacobs, Rooney stayed with him and had Mike not been corrupted, I see him only improving when he hits the 90s and being able to take Holyfield by decision, dropping him along the way and possibly finishing him in the mid rounds. In their actual fight, Tyson was winning after 5 rounds (narrowly, but winning) before he started to fall apart mentally and get physically drained due to not training right. The Tyson under Cus would always be in near perfect fighting shape like he was in the 80s, and he doesn't fold like the older one. In the 5th round, he rocked Evander with a big shot but was unable to capitalize on it due to him lacking the technical skills of the young one, younger Tyson may have finished Holyfield there.

Lewis-Probably the biggest threat to Tyson. He was a super heavyweight with a great jab, monster uppercut, skills, and stamina for a giant. His chin also gets under rated here, he was only dropped twice in all of his fights and that's impressive when you fight Tua, Briggs, Tyson, Mercer, Bruno etc etc. But Tyson takes it here, in the 1st round of their actual fight, Tyson was able to get to Lewis and showed glimpses (very small and short glimpses) of the younger one. Of course, Lewis also hit him with a few big uppercuts that discouraged him, but the prime Tyson wouldn't get discouraged and simply became a punching bag like he did in Memphis. He also wasn't nearly as easy to hit as the one that fought Lewis. I don't see Lewis surviving the entire 12 rounds without being able to avoid Tyson, honestly. We all saw how hard it was for Lewis to finish off a nearly shot Tyson, imagine how hard it would be for him to take out the Tyson of the Berbick/Spinks fights. Lewis could certainly pull it off and in a 3 fight series it would be more than possible for him to win one. But my money is on the great finisher and puncher Mike Tyson here.

Tyson may have absorbed a loss or two along the way before succumbing to old age (this might may have been sooner than I think for Tyson actually, his style relied heavily upon his reflexes and even with Cus he may have started to slow down at a young age) But I see him being the top fighter of the era, and going down as a lock for the top 3 of all time, more than likely even number one. We all know how great Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis are, but had Tyson beat them all we wouldn't hold them at close to the same level as we do now, and that would hurt him.

 

I'm just not sure he could beat Holyfield even at his best. Holyfields guts, talent and tactical brilliance including a willingness to bomb away when Tyson did as opposed to most others would have him in decent stead. He also potted then tied Tyson up at the perfect time to smother quite a bit of Tyson's most effective range. I'm very confident he would have put away Douglas however.

 

I believe that Cus knew that his boy was a variation of a swarmer, and swarmers have short primes. Think Armstrong. They would have had him fighting more regularly to pump that record up and achieve greatness. If you look at his record, you'll note that they were moving Tyson quickly and fighting him often until the problems started. He was fighting almost monthly before the title and then every few months after the title. They knew that Tyson was on a clock.

Holyfield was at the gates, barring greatness though. He was a stylistic threat to Tyson from the Dokes fight on in my opinion. Tyson may have been ill-advised to face Holyfield anytime after the Dokes fight, and Cus may have tried to avoid him at least long enough until someone else beat him and then avoid him some more. Cus was not shy about avoiding legitimate contenders (Patterson/Liston).

Or, they may have opted to have Tyson fight Holyfield when they believed that he would have been at his best -perhaps after meeting Alex "the Destroyer" Stewart and Henry Tillman who were roughly similar... keep in mind that Tyson's prime was destined to end early -like by about 25 because his high pressure, fast twitch fiber, explosive power style was the style of youth. Tyson was like a cheetah in the ring, fast and vicious but only for half a fight, and in terms of stylistic longevity -like a comet that speeds past and loses its luster.

I think that they'd really need a grand stategist like Teddy Atlas working with Tyson to exploit Holyfield's weaknesses. But either way, I think it would be hard as hell for Tyson to beat a man of Holyfield's skills, counterpunching ability, and most importantly, character.

I do believe that Tyson could have beaten Lennox believe it or not -especially the lankier, 1992 version. The older version of Lewis became larger and stronger and would have posed more problems but in our little alternative universe, Tyson would probably have been retired by his early 30s with a record of something like ...65-2, including a UD loss to Holyfield, a controversial TKO win where he regains the title from Holyfield, and a KO loss in the rubber match.

 

I'm not sure on this point. Tyson's superb Cus inspired defense, power and speed had him getting hit less than lesser offensive heavyweights even as great as Holmes. He was taking most foes out so early and getting hit so little in cutting his swathe thru the division i'm not sure he would have followed the conventional swarmers path.

Bottom line - stopping sooooo many people so early and taking sooo little punishment no matter how long the fight has me thinking he doesn't wear out per the swarmer norm.

Unfortunately in the game of life he had no-where near the intelligence or normality of guys like Frazier and co. He self destructed so soon we are left guessing as to what better circumstance would have unveiled.

 

Yes, I think that his low self-esteem was never "healed" by boxing or by Cus, who also objectified Tyson to a degree. He was bursting at the seems even before Cus died and cover-ups were already part of the Tyson system before he was a pro. However, with all of his supports around him I think they could have seen him through without Desire Washington type problems. They knew better than to leave that wolf around young women.
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Good points in your swarmer retort. I should have specified that I didn't mean in terms of 'punishment', because Tyson did indeed have an exceptional defense. I meant in terms of the extreme speed and expense of energy not only in his fights -but in sparring as well. Tyson was trained hard by Rooney et al., and it was no accident that they formed his style around speed and output.

Fighters normally reach their peak at around 29 or 30. Guys like Frazier, Armstrong, Meldrick Taylor, Beau Jack, and Tyson can't hold keep fighting as they do at optimal levels for long. Their peak, I surmise is earlier, maybe around 25 give or take a year either way.

I just did a quick check on those names I threw out there and the theory seems to fit:

* Armstrong was 25 in 1938 (he was in stride at that point. The losses started coming with some regularity in '40).

* Beau Jack, 1946 (by '49 he was losing with some regularity),

* Frazier, 1969, (-that was the year he had Ring "fight of the year" against Jerry Quarry, but had noticably slowed down after about age 27...)

* Meldrick, 1991 (he lost to Chavez at age 24 in 1990, which heightened his demise, and the other factor was the Duva's bad decision to move him up weight classes where he absolutely did not belong. No surprise that considering THREE factors converging, he was getting wrecked at age 26).

* Tyson was about to turn 25 in Ruddock II. He was technically only 24 but had already slowed down seriously. This may be partly due to the fact that he was far from his moorings by that point in terms of training and who was training him, but I think it was also partly due to the natural burn out expected from his high-energy style. After Ruddock it was the clink for him....

 

So, firstly I have to say that I think Tyson would always have gone nuts even if nothing of the things that happened would have happened. He just had it in him. It´s sad if you remember the young Tyson in interviews when he was talking about boxing. Very sad indeed. But I don´t pity him, it´s his own fault - and partly D'Amato´s.

If we take everything into Tyson´s favour and assume he wouldn´t go nuts he would would get undefeated until early '92 with a record of 45-0. Than there would be no way to avoid Holyfield anymore and he would lose to him by SD but win the rubber match by TKO. After that they would avoid Holy as long as they can which works since Holy would come out short of his trilogy with Bowe and so Tyson faces Bowe instead beeing 48-1 going into this fight. Bowe would be a rather easy prey. At the same time Lewis is coming up but Tyson´s camp, remembering their sparring sessions in the early 80s, would avoid him. So, Lewis would fight everybody at the way up, even Bowe because that´s Bowe only opportunity to get another shot. Holy would have rearrenged his game and in the early '95 would face and beat Tyson again. But his reign wouldn´t last long since Lewis earned his shot in his fight against Bowe and beats him. In the mid '96 Tyson get´s a shot at Lewis due to his name but get´s knocked out in 9 and retires with a record of 53-3.
His dominance and legacy would secure him a place in the top5 at hw and Lewis would have to work very hard to finish in front of him. But on the other hand Bowe never is seen as good as he is now. He would never be champ. He still would win his trilogy with Holy but not for the title but for a shot at it, would lose to Tyson and Lewis and retire at around '98 without getting every a nother shot. Similar Holyfield, he would be champ for 2 times but only briefly. He would get another shot at Lewis around '98 but would lose and fight on until now. He would have won the trilogy against Tyson but lost the one against Bowe and 2 times against Lewis. He would be seen as a great fighter but as one who was smashed between the time of the two giants Tyson and Lewis.

 

Tyson was always reckless in his private life... The evidence was always there but his 'family' managed to hide it. Poor Mike was always off the rails. he was always nuts... Look at the attack on Green in the street. Visit to the clap clinic before Berbick. The man enaged in risk taking behaviour out of the ring. Even as early as the berbick fight journalists were telling stories about how Tyson's on camera meekness was an act, that he was rude and nasty in interviews. Why this myth continues is beyond me...

 

I have to agree here, even if Tyson did not take the punishement that for instance Frazier took. Guys who reach extreme heights in a short period of time, at whatever area of life, always fade as fast as they come.


On top of that, Tyson was mentally damaged beyond repair. The amygdala is a part of the brain/nerve where emotional memories/responses are stored early in your life. Once they're there, they never or rarely go out. Mike's youth was scarred, in lack of a father figure, people he could trust, etc. No amount of Rooneys and D'amatos could've saved him from his inevitable self-destruction. The interesting thing is that you can really see him try to live a good life during his early 20's, but it's a fight against nature he cannot win.


And then there is the problem that once you knock out everyone without breaking a sweat, you naturally become overconfident. And no amount of reliable people warning you can prevent the negative consequences of that, no matter who you are. Unfortunately, the only way to learn it is the hard way, which is why he went through the **** with Robins, why Douglas beat him from pillar to post, etc etc. Even the mentally stable (relatively speaking) had their lesser moments, i.e. Louis vs Schmeling, Duran vs Leonard II, Foreman & Liston vs Ali, etc.


That said, if he kept his original trainers and few of them hadn't died, he might have fared a bit better, but i think he was always running on a collision course in the early 90's, and Holyfield/Lewis would've always presented a Mount Everest for him to climb, style and ability wise.

 

I agree with the last three posters here the belief Tyson would have been the greatest ever is a myth, even with D'amato and Rooney around him he wouldn't be able to stay out of trouble it is just in his nature. He was lucky enough to have them there when they were because even though he had freakish natural ability I don't think anyone else could have brought it out the way that they did.

 

I do sometimes wonder what Mike Tyson The Person could've been like if given proper guidance and psychological support from a young age, rather than shaped into Mike Tyson The Fighter and the cracks papered over.

Perhaps a youth worker, a motiviational speaker or even a reformed member of the clergy.
Massively less well known, but massively more emotional stable and happy in his life.

 

Personally, I do feel Tyson would have gone down as the best HW in history if things had been different. Now wait a minute before you ask "what am I talking about?"

At such a young age, Tyson was extremely advanced as a fighter. I mean, who else in HW history aged 20,21,22 was as good as what Tyson was at that age?

Given that he absorbed so much from what he was taught by people like Atlas, Rooney & D'Aamto, coupled with when he was a contender & during his peak years, he appeared to want to improve & learn more as a fighter, think of the development that could have been made!

We have to go by what has actually happened in life. Tyson prime was between 1986-1989. His best performance is genrally considered to be the win over Spinks. However, if things had played out differently, I believe Tyson would have improved as a fighter even more. Even if his peak were to be a few years after the Pinks victory, Tyson was always going to reach his prime at a young age compared to other guys.

I once read that the plan was for Mike to retire when he turned 30. Damn, there were people at one time saying Mike Tyson wouldn't live to see 30, let alone be fighting beyond then!

Tyson should have retired one of the wealthiest sportsman in history. Yes, his spending habits left a great deal to desired, but no doubt the leeches were out in force, doing everything they possibly could to con Mike.

No HW in history has ever had the unique combination of hand-speed & power, not the way Tyson had it. Mike was very naturally gifted. On the flip side, asking what could have been. Nobody is perfect, everyone has weaknesses. Myabe Tyson did have some mental weakness, so with the best will in the world, exceptional people around him to guide him, they may not have been enough!

We shall never know though, which is a great shame. Great, great fighter in his heyday. No one can deny this! Tyson was the reason I first became interested in boxing, & Ive not looked back since!

 

Absolutely.