Mike Tyson

Agree with you lefthook that Tysons attitude an determination in the Ruddock fight was notches above his determination in the Douglas. In the Buster fight his conditioning was awful also which was why he lost. People aren't giving Ruddock enough credit. He was one of the best punchers of that era an Tyson ate his shots up an kept the heat coming on Ruddock. The Tyson from the Ruddock fights walks through Douglas.

 

The Ruddock fights are really something to savor if you're a big Tyson fan. That was the last hurrah and last remnants of what "prime" Tyson looked like in the ring. TheGreatA did make some very good points regarding the comparison to Douglas that I won't bother to argue against, but one of the things I really liked about those fights with Ruddock is how he showed absolutely no intimidation by Tyson's presence and it didn't throw Mike off his game. Some of the pop heard on those punches (partly due to the crowd) was incredible. The fashion in which those fights escalated isn't for everybody, but I got a kick out of the crudeness and tension. A couple moments I can't forget is when Tyson takes a couple shots, then taunts Ruddock with his hands down and takes one flush in the face just before the bell, then proceeds to stare him down heading back into his corner. That's Iron Mike swag on full tilt and incredibly entertaining. The other was in the second fight when Mills Lane pushes Tyson back and scolds him to keep the hands up... the second he backs off, Tyson throws a single overhand right and drops Ruddock to his knees as if to say "like that?". :hat

 

Well, I think his performances pretty much confirm this. Prime is not a concept that is unrelated to performance; rather, performance defines prime. And physical assets are only one factor of prime. Focus, training, injuries and trainer are some of the others. He was simply not as good versus Douglas and beyond. However, the three years previous were as devastating as any heavy's resume before him in terms of pedigree of opponents and his performances against them. Yes, after a few years, he started to decline but those were a great, great few years, better than any three years put together by Dempsey, Liston or Ali.

 

I don't think a better prepared Tyson walks through Douglas but as Lefthook mentioned before a Tyson who is mentally and physically ready would get Douglas out of there. My prediction is within 7 rounds.

It's so blatantly obvious on film that Tyson was better prepared for Ruddock than he was for Douglas. The intensity was there against Ruddock.

 

I do not see Tyson regaining his prime form in the Ruddock fights though. That was the point. He may have been more focused, but the skill and the creativity isn't there. He did not need to think against Ruddock, you just needed to ring the bell and let Tyson do what he wanted. That was not going to work against Douglas.

I also think it's odd that people say Tyson lacked intensity against Ruddock, when he hung in there while taking a terrible beating and tried until the end. He absolutely wanted to win at all costs, to live up to his idols Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali, it just wasn't going to happen. I give a 1988 Tyson the benefit of the doubt, but a 1991 Tyson that to me and most other viewers looked every bit as bad skillfully? Can't see it happening. A bit of added focus isn't going to turn around the fact that he got dominated and knocked out by Douglas.

 

No doubt, Tyson was making a march back towards his title, and if he'd of beaten Holyfield, then we would've gotten not only Holy/Mike in '91, but most likely Bowe-Tyson, Lewis-Tyson, et al. How big would those possible wins of been for his career? Under these conditions, he probably burns out in the mid 90s but in all likelihood has a tremendously superior legacy to what it is today. I'd of loved for Tyson to retire after the Botha fight. His finances being in disarray made that an impossibility.

 

Bowe would have been tough for Tyson had they fought in '92. The planned escape from Don King would need to be in full effect, and I'd have Tyson the slight favorite over Bowe. Holyfield, Foreman, and possibly Mercer or Morrison would prepare Tyson for Bowe if he stayed motivated.

 

Douglas had leprechaun luck that night. No other version of Tyson losses.

 

Those match-ups are mouth watering. Of course, as Tyson fans we'd prefer pitting the 1988 version against those guys for where they were in the early-mid 90s, but I'm not worried to throw him in there. King mightve been.

 

Being that Douglas only performed like that once in his entire career in big fights, you're probably right.

 

Imagine being on the end of this jab for 10 rounds:

[DM]xerwd6_buster-douglas-jab_sport[/DM]

 

I dont think there is a correlation between hanging in there and taking a beating, and fighting with intensity. What Tyson lacked in the early 90's was his defensive skills, that definitely got worse from the time he split from Rooney, but at least he came into fights more determined and better prepared physically, and I think thats pretty obvious, and what would have been the difference in my opinion. Douglas simply wasnt that good in the gut department.

 

I think Douglas was a very skilled fighter and probably if he had more heart and a better chin, he would have accomplished a lot more, but thats what separates Douglas level fighters from the rest. I think Tony Tucker is another comparable example from that era. Those two guys are eerily similar in my opinion in skillset, just Tucker had a better chin.

 

while im not sure of your views of tyson, you are exactly right about the effectiveness douglas displayed with his jab that night.

being a shorter fighter, to come up against a taller opponent always presents challenges. but if that taller fighter, with greater reach, has a constent, solid jab, and makes no mistake with the delivery of it, ie; doesnt over commit, never stays in no mans land, pulls it back to defend against a counter, moves and jabs, etc, then it is a very difficult thing to overcome.

douglas fought the perfect fight. tyson was not at his best. he was off the rails, but he was still undefeated. tyson proved what a great chin hehad that night. what a great will to fight. but it was over. his aura of invicibility was gone.

the jab. still the best punch in the book.

 

i was thinking about how shorter fighters handled a great jab. immediately i thought of frazier ali. man, frazier ate 15 rounds of alis excellent jab......so i wondered if frazier was much tougher than tyson as he had eaten that jab over 40 rounds without getting k'd. then i thought of fraziers demolition by foreman. in a total of about 8 rounds joe hit the canvas near as many times. which then led me to wonder how hard ali hit with his jab? how hard did douglas hit with his jab?

i figure douglas had more authority that night with his jab, as it was a harder jab than ali had. douglass was no ali, but on that 1 night, he fullfilled his potential, he used a hard jab that nature or god had given him. it was a harder jab than frazier managed to negotiate for over 40 rounds.