Mike tysons behavior post prison has no relevance whatsoever to his h2h ability before jail.

All the evidence for Tyson having no heart is from the second half of his career when he was struggling with well documented mental illness and drug addiction.

The guy had wrecked his own life outside the ring and became mentally ill(which is nkt even debatable) and an addict what did you expect??? And how could that possibly NOT affect his work in the ring.

Everybody here agrees that boxing is 80% mental right? So if a guy literally loses his mind for the entire world to see, how could anyone in their right mind conclude that prime Tyson was the same.

If Tyson was always like that why was there an outrage and a morbid curiosity over his antics? Wouldn't it just have been business as usual? Because he was not the same guy that's why.


Yeah it tarnishes his legacy big time but has no relevance whatsoever to h2h matchups involving him in his prime.


When somebody who was not previously mentally ill or atleast had a stable environment which kept him even and then he goes to jail where he spends 3 years living with felons and then becomes broken and mentally ill and a drug addict of course it's gonna change him.

 

By the way Douglas put in the best SHW performance of all time and beat a prime even if not peak Mike tyson fair and square and Holyfield imo would always had atleast a 50/50 shot at beating him so no I'm not an excuse making fanboy

 

Of course its relevant. Theres not much to go by when discussing his h2h ability before prison. 90% of his competition were either tomato cans or were wiped out before we could see what he was actually made of (spinx, berbick, tubbs, etc).

Holmes was the best fighter he faced and one of the few atgs in that era and he was nearly 40 coming off a layoff and loss. It doesnt help that he only lasted 4 rounds and barely landed anything on mike. Mike was never in danger of being stopped or behind on the cards so once again, we didnt know how hed handle adversity against other greats. We thought bruno and smith with their size and power could give an interesting show, but they just held and fought with the intention to survive, neither made serious effort to actually win.

Ironically, his fights with douglas and ruddock ended up being some of his most entertaining bouts and the only ones where questions were really answered.

Of course, it isnt tysons fault if his era wasnt that great or if he was simply so devastating and effective his best opponents still didnt stand a chance. To some, that observation indicates he truly was great but i counter by saying yes he "did what he was supposed to do", but its when people take it overboard and act like he was invincible for knocking over old men, pushovers looking for a paycheck, and tomato cans is when people have an issue. Its not that people dont want to give him credit, its that you can easily name 6 or 7 fighters who would have a field day with the same competition; or who would have at least managed to win most bouts.

So in discussing h2h it only makes sense that people have guys like ali, holyfield, lewis, etc rated above him because they also had stressful low points inside and out the ring and still managed to overcome the odds and beat great competition (even when past their prime). For whatever reason, tyson just fell apart and couldnt get back that fire from the 80's and overcome adversity. We cant just ignore his poor performances and blame x, y, and z but hold every other HW to a higher standard.

 

There is lots to go on pre prison.

Every time He went the distance was before jail. He never had a 12 round fight after prison.

90% tomato cans? Alot of his contemporaries struggled with older more shot versions of those "cans".

Since when is a blow out and 5 years at the top level of the division not evidence of ability?
So if you say he's doing what he's supposed to do youre admitting he's supposed to beat them spectacularily because you had enough to go on to see how good he was.
(again I am NOT talking about legacy or greatness)

He had competitive fights with Tillis tucker, thomas and Ruddock

If he had died in jail you would say not much to go on?
Handspeed power, technique, reflexes etc are all there to see.

And to the point of battling adversity my point is that there is enough to go on to make it obvious that that was a different guy than post prison and that we saw how prime Tyson deals with adversity. he fights as well and long as he can until he wins or gets knocked out.


And about your point about low points In a career.... Again that's a legacy matter not a matter concerning his skills in his prime.


And then you have to look at Tyson's style,how the hell is someone who throws everything from the opening bell supposed to be anything other than afromt runner? It's how he was built not a mental weakness.
Mike can't be faster and hit harder inround 12 than he did in round 1. Not unless he intentionally held back his biggest advantage(his explosiveness) so if an opponent manages to fight him off or spoil him early and doesn't accumulate too much punishment of course he's gonna have a big edge later but it's not "mike folding"

A bullet comes out of a barrel at top speed and isnt magically faster after it's already travelled 500yards.

And a sprinter can only try to hold his top speed as long as he can once he reaches his full stride he can't magically speed up.
Mike was an explosive athlete who was short and therefore had to attack.

If it was the other way around people would be critizing him for being a slow starter.

 

It's not the be all and end all but one definitely can't completely thrust it aside as if it didn't happen at all. As for it's exact importance, well that has been the subject of endless debate. One end of the spectrum is yours were it is turfed out as irrelevant and the other is that it is indeed the be all and end all when judging how peak Tyson would have handled adversity vs the greats. The truth is somewhere in between imo.

 

I've always said Tyson had the physical ability to be the greatest heavy ever, or at least be in the conversation. But as you said boxing is mostly mental. Tyson shown signs well before he went to prison he was no more than a bully mentally, but he had D'amato,Jacob's, Rooney , and Atlas who shielded who he truly was from the media. And physically their were no heavys in the 80's that were talented enough to expose him. But their were signs though. When he got with Don King, the public began too see who he really was. Their were no checks and balances when he was with King. No one their to make sure he behaved the right way, say the right things. He became who he truly was. You can say prison changed him. But I believe who he is actually put him IN prison. Sure his skill level declined after his prison stint. But that loss of skills exposed the bully he always was, biting off ears, trying to break arms, eating kids, all the intentional fouling, all of the silly threats, that showed his insecurities, his fear, and frustrations when he could no longer dominate his opponents. He showed the world he didnt have the WILLPOWER to be considered The G O A.T . And opponents like Foreman, Liston, Ali, and others, men who would've entered the ring to win, not only survive, and had the physical ability would've more than likely beaten him, even when he was in his prime. Because that Old saying always ring true, especially with a man like Tyson, a bully is nothing but a coward on the inside. And if their were someone doing that 85-89 run that was talented enough, and had the heart of a real warrior. It would've been very interesting to see what Tyson would've done. My belief is he would've folded. Theirs a big difference between a warrior and a bully.

 

Lets look at those instances:

-against tucker, he faced a tall athletic guy who could box and had a good chin. Tucker broke his hand and still managed to go 12, losing the decision. By far the best demonstration of tysons ability to actually win rounds, but the broken hand and lack of rematch leaves a big asterisk* as to how hed do against a healthy outboxer of similar skill level. The only other example of him facing a boxer of this style in his prime was tillis, and some argue he lost that decision so its a very slippery slope here.

-ruddock 2 was an entertaining brawl but again an asterisk* because mills lane deducted not 1, but 2 points and yet tyson blatantly continued to throw below the belt. He should have been disqualified honestly but the weird part is he could have won without resorting to that.

-smith wasnt tysons fault. I dont blame him for smiths cowardly strategy and not wanting to open up to avoid beibg humiliated with a ko loss. Smith has been stopped by holmes and ruddock and wasnt a very good fighter or a particularly skilled one, so its entirely possible that literally the only reason it went 12 is because he spammed clinches every 30 seconds.

So overall, not a very stellar 12 round record even if it was partly due to circumstances beyond his control (with the exception of his low blows).

Read my post again. I said 90% of his competition were either cans OR they were old (jameson, tillis, holmes) OR they simply showed up for a payday and/or lacked heart (tubbs, smith, green, bruno).

Never said he lacked "ability".

Im saying it was RELATIVELY easy to blow out a mediocre division. And BECAUSE we saw how good he was and that he got the job done and eliminated his opponents like he was supposed to, we had high expectations when he finally did step up. And then douglas happened, a guy who was supposed to be a mere stepping stone before the "real" fight with holyfield.

Yes he lost a lot in his layoff, but holyfield wasnt exactly prime either and had been in many wars and had losses when they met. And he beat the breaks off tyson. So of course im going to question how well even a prime tyson would do against holyfield, let alone other ATG's because that was the best he faced up to that point. Tyson was "past his prime" but he WASNT "shot" as he was able to win 2 championship belts and beat some decent hws in seldon and bruno 2.

His actual fight with holy was competitive for a while, he didnt just get rag dolled or koed early losing every round. Had it happened that way, it actually would have preserved tysons prime legacy better ironically because people would have woken up sooner and no longer deluded by don king attempting to pull a jedi mind trick about how good he still was.

I agree. Those four were decent hws and at their best would be at the very least decent challenges for nearly anyone in other eras.

As mentioned earlier, the tillis decision was very close and he had to dig deep. Ruddock 1 & 2 were brutal and tucker was an excellent boxer with size and athleticism. Thomas not so much, he was mostly getting by on his gimmicky converted southpaw liston wannabe trick and tyson simply lacked experienc thinking he could just bulldoze him.

The only problem in bringing these four up is that they werent the top 3 or even top 5 best fighters he faced. Those were holyfield, lewis, holmes, spinx, and douglas. Holyfield beat him twice and lewis wasnt even competitive (tbf, tyson was shot and wanted a payday). Douglas simply had the greater will to win, tyson could have won and that is arguably worse than if it wasnt competitive at all. Holmes was coming off a loss and layoff pushing 40 and was mostly there to get paid. Spinx was terrified and lost before it began but thats not tysons fault.

Are you starting to see why its not so black and white and straightforward speculating how prime tyson would do against other ATGs? Obviously hed always have a decent hance with his amazing speed, power, and technique, but we cant only look at stats and when things were going good for an athlete. Thats what lebron fans do. We cant overlook every poor performance, their actual record and x factors like heart and discipline in training cant be overstated.

If he had died in jail, it wouldnt be like how alis record was before his exile because he still had his embarrasing loss to douglas. He still had the highlight reel of low blows against ruddock, spinx still froze and folded like wet tissue, m holmes was still almost 40, along with all the other things we discussed. It wouldnt be as bad as it is today, but people would still have doubts.

Of course it was a different guy mental state wise, but how much? Tyson even before cus died and he fell out with rooney had erratic behavior. He still snuck hotel maids into his room and did partying and neglected training once in a while even when he was supposed to be this gentle misunderstood kid from NY. To this day tyson claims he was innocent in the court case that got him in trouble and tbh, i actually believe him (thats a whole nother topic). But i think people exxagerate how much tyson "mentally checked out" after getting out of prison and being jaded and bitter at the world and his management. He had at any given time millions of dollars in the bank along with video game, commercial, wwe deals, etc. The way people tell the story they act like tyson didnt care for boxing at all from 1995-2005 and was simply "going through the motions". Really? Again, when he was making that much money outsid boxing and had tons in the bank, you really think he got punched in the head for an additional TEN YEARS if he had no heart for it at all? Ive seen people quit jobs after ten minutes!

Its still an x factor you cant overlook. Alis adversity was the possibility of life in prison without ever seeing his family, being lynched, or someone shoving an AK 47 in his hand and telling him to fight anyway. Holyfield had heart conditions, child support, irs issues, etc. Foreman had a nervous breakdown, divorces, lost all his money, etc. People need to stop acting like tyson had the most unique story ever and excusing every shortcoming when other fighters became even greater despite their hindrances.

Dude u basically just said tyson was 1 dimensional and cant adapt.

 

IMO he was showing signs of slippage a couple of years before prison. It wasn’t clear cut pre post prison. The sample size is much smaller.


Pre Robin GiVens
Post Robin GiVens

She didnt just break his heart. She drugged him then took him to Barbara Walters and made him look like a stooge. He was already trying to kill himself. The GoldDigger did a #. She even got him to fire his trainer Kevin Rooney.

Trust and believe Mike Tyson was never the same again. His mind was no longer interested in boxing. He didn’t care about the sport anymore. He went on because he was a follower and he could make $$$$$.

Tyson could still beat a lot guys on 70% auto pilot...like Williams, Ruddock, Bruno etc.


Mike Tyson fans thank that women. She messed him up....not to mention her mother.

 

Nailed it. It’s at least an open question.

 

I read your post.


I dont have the energy to reply to everything i disagree with because you literally have the wprst possible interpretation of every fight tyson had. You give him 0 benefit of the doubt.


1. Spinks didnt fold he did EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO GET TYSONS respect, he was throwing shots and just got knocked out by a COUNTER right hand, the implication being he was trying to get tyson off him but just got iced.

2.Tuckers hand was fine. Tyson just kept slipping his right hand and throwing a left uppercut to his body everytime he let it go. Watch round 3 again, several missed riht hands countered by left bodyshots from tyson and tucker stops throwing it.

If he felt he could have beaten tyson he would have gotten right in line for a rematch. Peak tucker was terrific and imo would have beaten 1996 holyfield who was never that great at hunting down movers and at 34 years and 215lbs was not active enough to beat tucker. Peak tucker imo might also outpoint 2002 lewis who was heavy and less mobile.
Tucker knew he couldnt beat tyson. Which is why he took over 2 years off after losing to tyson and didnt fight AT all. If he felt like he had just almost won the title we both know he wouldve been right back in the mix and would have beaten every other contender in 1988.

Douglas just beat up an unfocused tyson. Yes tyson was prime, he was not 100% and douhlas brought his A+++ game which was spectacular. Tokyo tyson did his best and just got beat ip, and he was coming on in rounds 8 9 and 10 and was starting to hurt douhlas but douglas had just piled up too much punishment on him.
1988 tyson might have beaten that tyson but no not tokyo tyson. He just got beat up.
Watch round 1 of tyson biggs and round 1 of tyson douglas. Youll see the difference, and its not douhlas being better than biggs, because douglas didnt do much in round 1.


Again yes all of this hurts his legacy. Badly so imo.
But how good he was on his best night in my opinion is not influenced by how bad he was on his worst night considering he became CERTIFIABLY MENTALLY ILL.


And yes he was unable to adapt his body type didnt allow it.
Joe frazier and rocky marciano also only have 1 way they can fight a 6 foot 5 athletic boxer puncher.

 

I think tyson of ruddock 1 was the best version of post rooney tyson. And mentally the best tyson. He didnt spoil he just fought like an animal unlike before when he would make silent agreements when he was already way ahead. He couldnt affprd tp vs ruddock, ruddock pushed him to his limits and he fought Like his hero duran, fierce, punishing, tough and yes also dirty(althouh ruddock had his pants up to his nipples and retaliated with his own fouls)

 

Rudduck was an easy dance partner. Mike was able to see those telegraphed hooks coming. That one handed fighter didn’t push Tyson to his limit. Tyson was able to counter him at will. Do you think Pre Givens Tyson lets Ruddock go more than 3 or 4 one sided rounds.

 

Prime Mike Tyson, H2H, could possibly be the greatest ever. There's not a single ATG heavyweight champion that Tyson could not realistically have beaten. At least not yet. Who knows, 50 years from now there may be a heavyweight that it's silly to picture Tyson beating, but not today.

People like to crap on Tyson's pre prison resume, but the fact is that he dominated really the father generation of skilled super heavies. Guys that would have been at the head of the class in any era.

Imagine a prime Tony Tucker in the Dempsey era?

Or maybe Pinklon Thomas in the 40s?

Frank Bruno in Johnson era?

Trevor Berbick today?

And I can't think of any ATG heavyweight champion who would sail through a prime Tyson's opposition without his share of trials and tribulations. We saw a washed up Pinklon Thomas eat punches from Bowe as if they were going out of style. Bruno out boxing Lennox Lewis. Stewart warring with a prime Holyfield. Sure, Tyson never beat any prime ATG heavyweight, but then again, it's rare for a champion in any weight class to have another prime ATG to face. It was time and chance that Ali came around when he did and got the opportunity. Had he been born ten years later, like Holmes, he would have missed the boat.

 

Ruddocks shots might have been telegraphed but they could come from any angle and if you react to the "telegraph" the wrong way, thinking it will come from the side when it comes from below you'll never see it and it will be lights out.
Ruddock is a terrible style match up for Tyson. His entire game plan was to time Tyson coming in byextending his left hand and aiming the smash at whatever direction Tyson's head bobbed.

I thought it was a very good performance because he proved exactly those attributes that people question.heart chin and stamina.
Tyson was still fast In round12, didn't make silent agreements or force clinches(like he did even pre givens with Thomas and smith) and showed a great chin and fighting spirit.

One of the most important fights of his legacy imo, especially because Tyson later admitted to ducking ruddock in 89

 

Not only was Razor one handed he also didn't utilize a jab
That meant Tyson could walk in. Ruddock nullified his own height advantage.