I don't really consider Mildenberger world class. This is why. "The sensation of the evening came in the interval to round seven, when the Bundes Deutscher Berufsboxer official, Gerhard Seewald, the appointed third man, had caught up with Machen's elbow when trying to part the boxers and fell backwards landing on his back. Helmut Bertram then took over the duties of third man on the grounds that Seewald was not fit enough to continue after his fall. Whatever the cause of this switch, Werner's decision saved the fight and the promotion. The crowd was not very pleased with Seewald's officiating up to this point. They had been calling for more action but whenever Machen went in close and proved superior at infighting, Seewald would pull him off. Machen, 33, was facing his first southpaw in 57 fights, and it certainly worried him. there were times when he did not know what to do. It also was his first fight since July 1965. Mildenberger, 28, was not prepared to take any chances. He couldn't afford to after his disappointing bouts with Dave Bailey and stable companion Gerhard Zech. He was content to coast along for a points win." Source? Post fight comments "My strong point is infighting at the ropes. I just don't understand why the referee pulled us apart every time." -Eddie Machen NB Machen had not won any of his last 3 fights ,would lose the next to novice Manuel Ramos and had not been ranked for over a year. Many consider Folley to have been robbed against Mildenberger So if we put asterisk against that fight, which other ranked heavy did Midenberger beat? "I boxed on orders not to get involved with any infighting, to stay outside. I'm sorry the crowd didn't agree, but why should I get myself unnecessarily into trouble when I could have a sure win boxing my way?" -Karl Mildenberger. "Veteran Zora Folley gave young Karl Mildenberger a boxing lesson Friday night but the judges evened it up and called it a draw - a verdict that stunned most of the 12,000 fans that jammed the Messehalle here to watch the two highly ranked heavyweights in what was billed as an elimination match. Folley carved out cuts under Mildenberger's eyes and repeatedly scored with solid left jabs and straight right hands over the southpaw efforts of the German challenger. By the end of the 7th round Mildenberger had cuts under both eyes while Folley bled from the nose as a result of Mildenberger's left. Referee Otto Nispel took it upon himself to stop the fight time and again to warn Folley on butting and in the 8th round Nispel stopped the fight while he took Mildenberger to his corner and wiped the blood off his face so a doctor could come to the ringside and examine the cuts. Mildenberger, although clearly outclassed, never stopped trying and absorbed a tremendous amount of punishment from the American. He was still trying gamely in the 9th and 10th while Folley was content to coast and that was all the judges seemingly needed." -European Stars & Stripes Unofficial Stars & Stripes scorecard - 7-2-1 Folley The UPI reported that Folley, "appeared to have the upper hand against his 26 year old opponent." While the AP reported that Folley, "appeared to have piled up a good margin. He gave the German a battering in the 7th and 8th rounds."
And not only is the 34-year-old southpaw with one win over a rated heavyweight "this generation's Ali" (which I also read this week) ... But the cruiserweights at the top of the division from 2010 to 2015 are now viewed as better than the heavyweights of the 60s (Ali, Liston, etc.) .,, because, you know, Usyk fought a couple of them. I'm sure someday we'll look back on this "months long" heavyweight reign of Usyk ... when Usyk took a collection of 65 cruiserweight champs over 40 years and made ABOUT 62 OF THEM better than they ever actually were ... as one of the more "psychotic" blips in fan history. Someone nudge me when soon to be 35-year-old loses in a couple months and the "hangover" commences. Don't worry. I won't bump any of the nutty threads claiming Glowacki cleans out the 60s heavyweight division. I'm nicer than that. (Although others on this board certainly aren't and won't be.)[/QUOTE] The 1960s heavyweights were no bigger than todays cruiserweights and in many cases smaller. They are not remotely comparable with todays heavyweights so it doesn't really make sense to bring up Usyk not having many fights at heavyweight. By that same token we can argue that Ali, Liston, and co were not really heavyweights at least by todays standards. In the 1960s they didn't have skilled SHWs like Fury or Klitschko. Sonny Liston built his rep beating guys little bigger than todays light heavyweights. With early weigh ins Folley, Machen, Patterson could all make light heavyweight. Why are we supposed to be impressed with Liston beating these guys? The 1960s heavyweights seem to owe a lot of their reputation to sharing an era with Ali.
Frankly if Mildenberger was in Usyk's era he might opt to fight at light heavyweight. Light heavyweights today enter the ring as heavy as Mildenberger. He probably loses to the top light heavies like Beterbiev, Ward, etc.
The 1960s heavyweights were no bigger than todays cruiserweights and in many cases smaller. They are not remotely comparable with todays heavyweights so it doesn't really make sense to bring up Usyk not having many fights at heavyweight. By that same token we can argue that Ali, Liston, and co were not really heavyweights at least by todays standards. In the 1960s they didn't have skilled SHWs like Fury or Klitschko. Sonny Liston built his rep beating guys little bigger than todays light heavyweights. With early weigh ins Folley, Machen, Patterson could all make light heavyweight. Why are we supposed to be impressed with Liston beating these guys? The 1960s heavyweights seem to owe a lot of their reputation to sharing an era with Ali.[/QUOTE] I agree the jury is still out on Usyk. Liston fought plenty of guys over 200lbs.
I agree the jury is still out on Usyk. Liston fought plenty of guys over 200lbs.[/QUOTE] Big men in the 60's-80's were carthorses and even Lison's heaviest opponents are below average size HW's by today's standards. The 90's represented a turning point in the division where there were 6'5+, 235+ lbs men who were significantly more skilled and athletic than past big men. Prior to the 90's, the top heavyweights tended to be around 6'2 and 210-215 lbs. Post-90's, even the most skilled and athletic 6'2-ish 205-225 lbs HW's like Holyfield, Haye and Povetkin couldn't compete well with the skilled and athletic giants. There were upsets and shorter (though typically not much lighter) HW's did win battles but the big men (Bowe, Lewis, Vitali, Wlad, Wilder, Fury, AJ) were clearly winning the war and the belts always found their way back to them before long. Usyk may be the exception here. No 70's-80's sized heavyweight had previously outboxed an elite SHW champion in a dominant fashion, much less in their backyard. People can speculate that Ali or Holmes could have done it but the closest analogue pre-90's was Holmes-Cooney, which was still a competitive fight. Usyk actually beat and outclassed a 6'6, 240 lbs skilled athletic HW champion. Is this because southpaw Usyk is the best of his type? Is it because AJ is a historically weak/vulnerable SHW champion? Both? Did AJ just get his tactics wrong? It's probably popular to say that AJ is historically weak but compared to Bowe he's taller, rangier, heavier at his lightest weight age for age, harder hitting and vastly more disciplined (less strain on the body, turn up to fights in better shape, more effort to hone skills). Bowe's best opponent by a significant margin was a fighter who was 6'1.5, 210 lbs and orthodox, rather than a modern athlete who is 6'3, 220 lbs and southpaw, as well as more accomplished as an amateur and a cruiserweight. Had Bowe had AJ's opponent, I would guess that he would have struggled considerably more than he did and all of the fights with Holyfield were competitive, especially the second. I believe that the only pre-Klitschko champ who fought a decent number of good southpaws was Holyfield and he lost 3/4 of his fights with them (one was a blown-up SMW, another was a blown-up LHW). All of this makes Usyk a unique fighter in the history of boxing already and if he does the double over AJ in the proposed rematch, he will have done something else unprecedented: no elite SHW has been beaten twice in a row by a much smaller opponent. If he beats Fury as well and becomes undisputed, it's the ultimate "P4P" win in the history of the sport.
Karl Mildenberger: Great record had some big top ten wins, not a big puncher. I've had people how surprised they were Bonavena handled him so ez albeit not a knockout, others have said they picked Ringo (who never knocked out a top ten opponent)- easily. The Lefty German Ranked #1 by both Ring and WBA WAS PRETTY MUCH ONE OF THE FAVORITES OF THEY 1967-68 8 MAN TOURNAMENT. I do not know how anyone could have ranked him over Joe Frazier, course Eduardo Corletti was # 2 in 1968, how was that for reasoning?
I respectufully disagree. Ali was not at his best against Milde. He was fighting too much in those days, just defeated Cooper 2 and London a couple weeks earlier. If Ali had taken Milde serious, my fellow german would not have looked so good. And then take the 1-1 head to head: I like Milde very much, but we shoudnt make AJ a total tomato can. Imo he would have KOed Milde brutally, and Bonavena too. And Milde + Bonavena would also never have defeated a 41 years old Wladi, AJ did.
I do agree with the beginning of your post but respectfully disagree with the later part relating to fighters of today. Muhammad Ali was one of the most active champions since Joe Louis. But remember he had a potential Prison sentence because of his opposition to being drafted into the military, so yes he fought often, not like the divas of today that get off on leaving the loyal fans in suspense like one of those corny soap operas. I do not pay any attention to any of those drama queens, who are full of Modern ( Steroids) Nutrition. I like watching the smaller weights, they fight more often. But in all your post is so true of the Ali vs Mildenberger title bout in Sept 1966, by the way I saw that bout live on ABC's Wide World Of Sports with my older brother, good fight.
I am also not a fan of nutrition etc., but i dont see how Milde could have survived against Wlad or AJ. Yes he was slick and very well trained, a southpaw with very unorthodox punches, but guys like Wlad and AJ are too much for him. He simply didnt have the punching power to impress neither of them. Karl was technically a great guy, but he had most probably even less punching power then Axel Schulz, and much less punching power as Luan Krasniqi. I give a prime Krasniqi a better shot against Wlad or AJ as Milde, but even he would have lost to them. Milde was lucky Ali fought too much and was not at his best level. In the same shape, condition and mood like he was against Brian London, Milde would most probably have ended exactly like the englishman London. The only German - besides Schmeling of course - who had a fair shake to beat AJ was a prime Axel Schulz, the same man who fought Foreman in 1995. This was the best version of Axel, his speed, footwork and chin were very good, and AJ could gassed out since he would most probably underestimate his footwork, chin and durability. And a peak Timo Hoffmann from the Vitali fight also could have given AJ much more problems then Milde. If AJ would underestimate those two Germans, i would give both of them a fair shake to beat him, or let s say Hoffmann gives him the hell of a fight and Schulz could beat him. Hoffmann at his best was a 6'7.5"(202cm) / 251lbs / 17st13.3lbs giant with an iron jaw, AJ would not have any physical advantages over him. This content is protected This content is protected
I also saw the Henry Cooper vs Ali, (second fight on May 21 1966) on ABC's Wide World Of Sports as well as the title defense against Brian London on Aug 6 1966 on the same program, both live. But like I posted, Ali knew he was not going to step forward to take the oath to be drafted and face a loss of his boxing license and title, plus a 5 year prison sentence. So that was his reason to fight often, I wish the heavyweights of today would fight more often like that, but that is asking too much.
Mildenberger was a decent fighter. He would do well at 175 or 190 or 200 pound divisions in this era. Maybe pick up a world title. He was clearly no worse than someone like Makubu or Bellew. He could challenge for a title at heavyweight too. He is better than several of Wilder's challengers. He could hold and defend European title. He would win some and lose some, at European and world levels. I suspect Usyk is a notch above. Mildenberger might beat most of Usyk's opposition but not all in dominant fashion as Usyk generally has.
I was there when a 34 years old Cooper beat Mildenberger up and Karl fouled out with butts to save himself from further punishment.
