Money ranks @ 28-30 ATG, Manny 42-46

11 Benny
12 Gans
13 Ross
14 Moore
15 Ray Leonard
16 Wilde
17 Pea
18 Walker
19 Canzoneri
20 Monzon

 

I have Leonard in my top 15. No queation in my mind. I was merely pointing the holes in the OP'a logic

 

Off the top of my head, 11-20:

11. Greb
12. Tunney
13. Fitzsimmons
14. R. Leonard
15. Johnson
16. Langford
17. Jofre
18. Hagler
19. Hearns
20. B. Leonard

Damn, forgot Whitaker. Probably goes ahead of Jofre.

 

You first !:good

 

I can't see how Greb can be that low given his resume. Same with Langford and Fitz. But that's just me

 

I could say the same thing about you and Louis, Ali, Moore, and Monzon.

 

Manny -

Barrera
Weight Drained Morales
3 losses to Marquez
Weight drained Delahoya
Coked up Hatton
Weight drained Cotto
Clottey
Margarito after Layoff
Shot to **** Mosley

:happy Manny the ATG!

 

I'm not sure you could. Louis doesn't have a better resume than Greb ad Langford. No chance. Besides, Louis, Ali and Moore are all in my top 15. Monzon wasn't as good as Ross either.

I can't have Moore in my top 10 given the strength of my list. Plus losing 3 times to Ezzard Charles at the height of his prime doesn't help his case

 

What doesn't help your case is that you speak with such definitive responses when discussing something which is clearly subjective and something which any neutral observer would point out as being extremely arguable at the very best.

For all we know, Ketchel and Sanchez are ACTUALLY better and more deserving than Greb, but neither of us are 100 years old, saw them fight, or can speak to a higher power to find out.

I think your list is good. I think it is too bias on classic fighters (while strangely omitting guys like Tunney, Sullivan, Ketchell, or Saddler), but hey, I certainly respect that and value it more than a list which puts too much emphasis on contemporary fighters. Do I think it has "holes," as you claimed mine had? Absolutely. Do I think one can produce a top 10 ATG list without having "holes?" Absolutely not.

 

Manny Pacquiao, Fighter of the Decade.

 

Pacquiao ranks higher, and thats pretty much universally agreed upon by boxing anaylsts. His resume is simply better, and he's won more belts in more divisions, including lineal belts. He's fought everybody. Floyd had the chance to make himself great but he opted to 'retire' a bunch of times and duck fighters.

 

I rank on 1 resume, 2 longevity, 3 prime losses, 4 achievement and 5 head to head ability, with greater importance placed on resume, and least importance based on head to head. So, in my mind, and going off MY critira, my list, particularly the top 10, I'm more than happy with.

Some rank on skill alone, which doesnt mean much to me as we don't have significant footage of fighters from the past to gauge a thorough understanding. If we take filmed skillset as gospel, Duran is my number 1, yet on resume he doesn't math up to Charles, Greb and Langford.

Fitzsimmons, who started a lightweight, campaigned at Middleweight, and knocked out THE heavyweight champion with 1 punch, likely had the greatest win of all time. Greb, while MW champ had beAten WW champ Walker, LHW champ Loughran, and HW champ Tunney. So he likely has the strongest p4p resume. Robinson, going 121-1 in his prime, likely has the 'unbeatable at his weight' trait attached, and Langford and Charles run Greb very close on the resume front. Armstrong again, FW champ, LW Champ, WW champ during a great period, and was robbed challenging the best MW on the planet, is a damn fine p4p fighter.

That's why I say those 7 (Greb Robinson Armstrong Langford, Duran, Fitz and Charles) could all be conceivably rated as the best fighter ever

 

Well said.

 

Noticed when comparing PBF and Pacs records , that pbf got to them when they were deemed a threat. Dlh was coming off an invigorating ko of mayorga and was younger and fresher. Hatton thought he was unbeatable used better footwork and kept his hands up.
People mention how great he looked vs paulie. But over looked the fact that he struggled and looked at times ready to go down against the tough but ordinary lazcano. Note paulie isn't a puncher so Hatton had nothing to really worry about. Pbf never called out Jmm, but took up the challenge. No matter how flabby or inshape jmm was the outcome would of been the same. Mosely came off his best results in years and other then the 2nd rd was dominated and in survival mode after the 7th. Those common opponets were all better version of themselves when they faced pbf. Dlh was coming off a fight with Forbes in which he suffered a fractured cheekbone by the light hitting former lightweight.Hatton came in hands down zero foot work and was carefully matched with a light hitter after the scare with lazcano(which a lot of people forget cuz it was aired on versus) before his fight with pacman. Mosely came off a draw with the ever so arrogant but ordinary Mora. Pac looked less spectacular when mosely gave him some lateral movement(mosely just can't pull the trigger).

pac showed zero traits of being able to adapt or cut the ring off. Now we're at JMM. Only one reason that 3rd fight was made they thought Jmm was old and declined just enough after the fights he had been in with his latest run of opponents. Boy were they wrong. I give pac his credit for what he's done up to 130. But the rest has been careful match making and timing with the correct fighter except Clottey. For some reason though he just did enough to throw a few undercut that marked up pac pretty good but was content with just making the distance. People say Pbf, with the exception of castillo at lightweight has not really fought any one. What about Ndou ? He was on a hot streak what 29-1 20something kos. Was obliterated and is now under thought of. Was trying to get a fight with cotto so toprank matched him with Bruseles, whom he proceeds to beat down in wich toprank then decides to scratch that idea ,underestimating pbf's future drawing power thinking they have the new Tito and not wanting to risk it . At 140 he could of tried to get Tyszu but went for Gatti instead. That was more about the money and that i do blame on him(but it's a missed one).
He then fights Mitchell at 147 which is a good measuring stick as both were coming from jww. Has a fight agreed upon verbally with Judah( not his fault Judah doesn't hold up his end and come in with the real belt.) Who by the way was still dangerous and not coming off a beating or ko. He then shuts the critics down by going after the true welterweight champ. Then gets his grand fight against dlh on Hoya's terms. You say he ducks margo? When he decides to face the undefeated Hatton who just won a welter strap. Pbf had if i recall correctly stated a few times that had cotto beaten margo that was the fight he was looking at(dlh was also looking for cotto to win to possibly get that fight as well). So cotto loses and pbf decides to chill. Comes back knocks off the rust and decides to Fight the biggest threat at 147. Its not his fault Mosely was inactive, he didn't make judah pull out of the fight they had scheduled that prior May or make GBP not find Mosely a fight. He then decides to chill and come back again. Comes back and smashed the 2nd best ww in the world. Now look at pac. 135 diaz, stationary target and slow plodder. Bypasses. Juan Diaz and casa. Fights a shell of dlh that was weight drained(not pacs fault, this win overrated). Hatton already said. Cotto damaged goods and brought down below normal weight struggled with Clottey and prior to that had a gimme fight with Jennings. Not really in the best form. Clottey Already hit that earlier, stationery target threw a few punches and managed to lump pac up. Margo stationery target slow plodder. By the way. Gotta say i see most people favoring pbf 55-45 over pac, it's insane. If this fight ever comes off It'll be a one sided affair with a ko at the end i say 9-11 . Pbf has every weapon to nullify everything pac does best, great counters, timing ,jab lead, right hand, check left hook,physical dimensions, higher BOXING IQ, and the ability to adapt and adjust. Not to mention he just doesn't know how to lose. I have it 99-1, with pac having a punchers chance. Mayweather has Timing and speed and he's not feather fisted.

 

I wasnt trying to patronise you in any way. I tend to forget people have different criteria to me

But like I say, with my criteria, I'm more than happy with my list. But I am undertaking a strong review of my divisional rankings, so it is always subject to change. Those top 7 I have SET tho