Monte Cox's all time divisional ratings

Any list that has Joe Louis above Muhammad Ali loses its credibility almost immediately.

Joe Frazier should be above Mike Tyson, George Foreman should be lower as should Holmes.

 

I think its a poor list putting Joe Louis @ # 1 is Good and Ali @ 2, leaving Marciano out is either Bias or a blunder, Foreman @ 4, mabey if you could blend the old version with the young version but Liston @ 5, Johnson @ 7....he is short of any kind of expert

 

A couple of Joe Gans' specialists on this thread, I see?

 

Hm, I think all-around these are quite decent lists when it comes to who is in the Top10 - not the exact placements though. There are a few exceptions but all in all quite decent. I was a bit surprised that he really seems to try to be objectieve towards today´s fighters and didn´t dwell in the past - for example Pacman inside the fw top10.

 

It's OK - But I think Lennox is too high, and Jack Johnson should be a bit higher, not to mention the absence of Marciano.

 

Not an expert but I know enough about the guy to know he's not the p4p #2 of all-time. I would rate him somewhere between 12-15, I would not argue with him being placed in the top 10 but at #2, no way.

The guy was an offensive master, great punching power and technique - he threw almost every punch perfectly. Great handspeed aswell. He could pick an opponent of with pin-point accurate pot-shots of a counter or land blistering combinations with power behind them. Defensively he was very good aswell, he guarded himself well and uses his upper body speed to quickly duck and pick off punches.

So on ability he ranks pretty highly as he seems an almost complete fight, and H2H aswell as with his overall defensive capabilities and offensive arsenal he would beat pretty much anyone at lightweight.

It's his resume which is lacking though, the first time he stepped up to fight for the lightweight title against Frank Ernes, by no means a great fighter, he was stopped in 12. Then the next time, he was KO'd by the much smaller Terry McGovern, although a great fighter he was he weighed in around 10lbs less. He did eventually avenge his loss to Ernes, knocking him out in the 1st and claiming the title in the process.

After this though the lack of names continued, Dave Holly is a decent win on his record but not much more, Joe Grim is recognisable but only for being a low level journeyman with a fantastic chin. He does have a win over Jack Blackburn, arguably a top 15 lightweight of all-time, though this was very, very early in Blackburn's career. He then lost to the likes of Sam Langford and Battling Nelson, by no means embarassing losses, although the losses to the latter are a bit disappointing as I would expect Gans to beat Nelson but he lost both by KO, but this again highlights the lack of names on his record and the fact that when he stepped up to fight likes of Langford, Nelson, McGovern etc, he usually lost and usually got stopped in the process.

He did actually draw with Barbados Joe Walcott, he was actually given the edge in rounds and this probably rate among his best performances, whoever this was during the period of which Barbados Joe began to lose a string of fights to merely contender types and Gans really should of beaten him comfortably at this stage. He also has a win over Nelson, however this was a DQ loss on Nelson's part so it remains to be seen whether or not the win can really be classed as legit.

On ability and H2H he is right up their with the best, however his resume is too lacking for him to be rated above the likes of Langford, Greb, Robinson, Armstrong or Ezzard Charles. :good

 

Pryor is ranked very high at lightweight and Ike Williams is low and he doesn't have Ortiz on his lightweight list. Also as feather he has Pacman but not Saldivar, Philadelphia Jack O’Brien shouldn't be top ten light heavy guys like Dillon and Johnson deserve it more and Tunney should be below Charles who looks better on film and has a better resume.

Interesting he only ranks fighters at one weight no Greb or Fitz at light heavy and no Robinson or Walker at middle. And he only ranks Armstrong at feather.

 

I agree, top 3 for sure but who would rate higher...I think if he rate Moore and Charles 1 or 2 , it give Rocky more Cred and Cox is Biased obviously against the 50's

 

Just to point out quite a few people believe the first Erne Fight and the Mcgovern bout were fixes,the Mcgovern one can seen on YOU TUBE.Gans was suffering from a terminal illness when he fought Nelson ,I think it was TB. But I agree Gans is too high ,though he makes my no2 at Lightweight.

 

Looking over the other divisions I see a couple of glaring anomalies .Jack O Brien at no 10 LH? OBrien took the title off a 43 year old Fitz,never defended it and was twice kod by Middle king Ketchel ,he doesnt belong here imo.Ike Williams a monster is rated only 10th at Lightweight and no Ortiz or Brown there either.Other Rankings are pretty acceptable in the divisions below Heavy ,imo.

 

Erne was a great fighter, Dixon, Griffo, Downey, Lavigne, Hawkins, McFadden, O'Brien, that's a top-notch resume for any epoch, and he lost only to Dixon of these.

Erne fight was an accident, an injury that he desided not to risk fighting with. Erne was avoiding a re-match for 2 years.

McGovern was the most obvious and commonly accepted fix (it was reported in NY World the day before the fight that black population was betting large sums on Gans getting stopped, so that the mayor summoned Gans' manager to warn him that he wouldn't tolerate it).

Supposed "lack" of names after winning the title is a laughable claim to say the least. McFadden, McPartland, Holly, Crosby, Fitzgerald, Blackburn, Walcott (pretty much all journalists thought Gans whipped Walcott convincingly), Britt, Sullivan, W. Lewis, Nelson, Herman (despite his showing in Gans' fight, look at whom he faced and either drew or won against prior to facing Gans: Forbes, Y. Erne, H. Lewis, Herrera, Attell, Yanger).

Jack Blackburn was not a lightweight, he was a welterweight.

The first Nelson fight proved all that was needed to be known about Gans. Despite having to fulfil a million outrageous demands enforced by Nolan (Nelson's manager), he convinsingly outboxed and outpunched Nelson, despite the latter fighting very dirty and despite the injuries. You question if it was legit? Here's what the referee of the fight wrote in his Oakland Tribune sporting section: "It was apparent to all in the arena that during the last two round Nelson was trying to lose on a foul, and the one that lost the fight for him looked premeditated. There was no possible chance for anyone to say that the fight was not on the square--with the exception of the foul punch--and it was bitterly fought from start to finish."
Langford and Greb have more names on their resumes, argueably Charles too (pretty much anyone's resume pales compared to these), but not Robinson or, especially, Armstrong (who's resume is rather mediocre compared to the best in history).