Here it is: http://coxscorner.tripod.com/frazier_holmes.html Let me start by stating that i think it's a good article and he makes good points. I would slightly favor Frazier in this matchup, but i think Cox is overlooking or exxagerating a few points that downplay Holmes' chances. For instance, i think he makes a really weird mistake by stating the following: "Joe's style of coming in low would make it harder for Holmes to find him with his jab than most realize. Larry didn't like to punch down; he'd prefer tall fighters like Bonecrusher Smith or Gerry Cooney. They provided a big target without much head movement while they pursued him at a pace in which he could pick his spots and score almost at will. Forced to punch down at Frazier would've reduced Holmes accuracy." No doubt that Frazier would duck under a lot of shots, but the punching "down" is simply not true. Anyone who has boxed will know this, but that is not even necessairy. To realise the simple truth, just stand up and extend your left out straight. Now imagine someone 4 inches shorter than you standing in front of you. His head is right at the end of your fist. Complete to the contrary of what Monte claims, someone who is that much shorter presents the ideal punching height. Many people don't realise it, but when you hit someone exactly as tall as yourself, you're punching upward as well, unless you're aiming for his shoulders. I tell you, it's jabbing heaven against someone that much shorter. Of course that doesn't tell the entire story of the fight and you just have to watch Ali vs Frazier I to see why. But even at that, Frazier took a truckload of jabs. A point that i've seen here made on ESB is that Holmes seemed to be relatively vulnerable to the straight/looping right hand, but was very adept at blocking/avoiding left hooks. Obviously, this is bad news for Frazier; a relevant point that should be mentioned. Well, he actually does bring up the point but then "neutralises" it by saying: "As stated earlier, if Holmes couldn't keep Frazier from getting inside, he's just as vulnerable to Joe's left hook as Ali." :huh I think this is a great over-simplification. Cox's "hidden" argument here is that Ali only got nailed by the left hook because Frazier got on the inside. Wrong, Ali has shown vulnerability to left hooks over his entire career and Frazier getting on the inside and landing it was just a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself. While i don't doubt Frazier will land his share of left hooks (as he would against anyone), there is no reason to assume that Holmes all of a sudden would lose the ability to block or avoid this punch as showed for almost 20 years as a professional boxer. After waving off this big difference in vulnerability to Frazier's money punch (and it was his money punch more than any other boxer had one), he states a few factors like durability, stamina and foot movement in which he gives Ali a slight edge. Fair enough, but those differences, especially regarding the 70's Ali, are as so small that i'd call it a non-factor and i don't see why he finds them more significant than the former stated, big difference between them. All in all it was an entertaining read though and he certainly makes valid points combined with a pleasant writing style.
Holmes right uppercut could be a factor here ,though in throwing it he would be vulnerable to the left hook.I pick Larry ,but not with great conviction,Fraziers pressure would throw Holmes off a bit I feel.
I thought it was a good article as usually. Certainly better than his article on Foreman. As to the outcome, I too am inclinded to favour Frazier due to styles, but it certainly could go either way, as it's a tough call.
On the jabbing issue, I believe Cox's point was that Frazier would be both four inches shorter than Holmes and coming in low, in a crouching, bobbing-and-weaving stance, as he always did. Since Ali was approximately Holmes' height and had a similar stance, I think it's reasonably instructive to watch the way he throws the jab at Joe- looking at the film of their first fight, I'd say there's a slight downward ark, but not really enough that he's "punching down" in a way that damages his effectiveness, I'd say.
I'd lean towards Holmes here. He was very good at blocking left hooks (not right hands) which is Fraziers bread and butter. Ali's big weakness was he was weak at blocking left hooks, which against Frazier is going to hurt you. Also, Holmes had more power than Ali so Frazier wouldn't be able to get tagged as much as against Ali. His big right uppercut may be able to drop Frazier as he comes in. A stoppage is pretty unlikely here, Holmes was a master at surviving when hurt. I'd pick Holmes by close but clear UD, but I could see Frazier dominating the later rounds and maybe pick up a decision himself.
I think its a competitve fight but Frazier's relentless stamina and pace may wear Larry down in the end and Larry's uppercuts may find a home but leaving a way for Fraziers Hook...
I agree in general with the author, FRANK LOTIERZO. His argument I believe is solid: Holmes' arsenal was best against a tall, slow target: jab, jab, right cross, jab, sneaky slicing right uppercut up the middle. Straight punches in general are not enough to score against Frazier, as his dipping was effective in avoiding quite a few; you needed greater variety of shots from the sides in the form of powerful hooks and uppercuts, which Holmes really did not have; notwithstanding, to attempt maximum power, he would have to stop to load up. In having to do so against Frazier, he would become vulnerable to Frazier's hooks downstairs as well as up. I see Frazier taking a hard-fought and -earned decision, as his pressure would allow him to be right there throughout the fight, wear Holmes down and edge out his foe on the strength of a more effective offense in this particular matchup.
Frazier KO Holmes, anywhere between the 10th and 15th rounds. Prime Joe Frazier's pressure would be too much for Larry to handle. Holmes quite possibly wins the first three rounds of a 15 round contest against Frazier and maybe wins one or two more rounds in the middle of the fight.
Larry had a very powerful right uppercut, and his left hook could cut you up. I think Larry had enough power to keep Joe off of him, and to slug with him long enough to get out of a corner or off of the ropes, something Muhammad didn't have the power or natural slugging abilities to do.
The author is a big Frazier fan. To make his conclusion, I beleive he is under valuing what Holmes could do. Holmes had a very good uppercut. He could clinch. He could body punch. And he could fight dirty. These things are needed vs swarmers. I do not see Frazier taking Holmes out. Holmes was only stopped once in 75 matches, and he was older vs a prime Mike Tyson. Besides, Holmes could be caught with rights. Frazier did not have a good right hand at all. In addtion, the author failes to mention that Frazier was down on points to a fat Mathis until turning the tides, and nearly TKO'd by Bonevenna. Holmes would likely TKO Frazier in the later rounds, and he would not be down on points.
Although I would'nt be surprised to see Joe win this one I still have to go with Larry by decision. I think Larry hit with more authority than Ali and that would slow down Joe's continuous forward march somewhat. Ali slapped alot with his punches and sacrificed power for speed. Holmes didn't, at least not to the degree that Ali did which is why he would put more hurt on Joe punch for punch than Ali did. This might make Frazier back off a bit and rethink things a bit more than he did against Ali. Larry also had a very good uppercut which could bring Frazier out of his crouch though it does make Larry susceptible to Joe's hook but Larry was more vulnerable to a right than a left. I tend to agree with Mendoza's post regarding this matchup but I see Larry winning by decision rather than TKO. One helluva fight no matter what the outcome.
Certainly Holmes could do what you describe, but not for 45 minutes unscratched. I believe Holmes' power was just a tad greater than Ali's at FOTC, where he put a terrible beating on Frazier early on and Frazier just kept coming, in the process getting in his own whacks which took their toll. I see this fight evolving similarly. Frazier proved he could beat a great boxer in Ali over the distance. Holmes never faced the pressure Frazier brought, yet was there to be hit in the second half of the fight by an older Norton. If you aren't a huge hitter like Foreman, Frazier will be on you throwing punches till the final bell. Holmes' uppercut was more effective against taller opponents, up the middle, often in sneaky combination. Against smaller, crouching foes, it was a good, hard shot often to the body (see Tyson fight), which Frazier could certainly take. Again, it was not a Foreman-type monstrosity to the chin. And throwing this punch regularly leaves you open for Frazier's counter hook, no matter what your name is. Perhaps Holmes could stop Frazier on horrible swelling as a result of a terrific offense over the distance, but, again, the Ali offense didn't come close to doing so. Or Holmes could cross the finish line standing for a decision. But, against Frazier's pressure, I see him breaking down and running out of gas before that happens.
Holmes's uppercut was very effective against crouching opponents too, like Snipes and Occasio. He ripped his uppercuts into them clearly hurting them. Larry's right uppercut was very dangerous, if landed clean, it almost always hurt you. Look what it did to Weaver, it put him down and probably should have been out.
Frazier's attack was more relentless than Tyson's. Joe would always leverage his punches inside and rarely allowed himself to get tied up. That body attack was insane. Holmes on the other hand possessed what is probably the greatest jab ever in the heavyweight division. If Ali could lump up and shut Fraziers eyes with HIS jab, Larry could obviously do as well or better. BUT could Holmes withstand that pressure? With the movement he showed against Shavers allowing him to get out of corners and off the ropes PLUS that devastating uppercut Holmes has a pretty impressive arsenal of his own and I think that he would employ the same strategy against Smokin Joe. THIS would be a GREAT fight! EDGE to Holmes by SD.
