Monthly heavyweight rankings from 1882 onwards

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SimonLock, Aug 3, 2022.


  1. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    We are getting close to agreement on top 10! Simon has Ryan and Greenfield, I have Cleary and Cardiff. I really didnt think much of Ryan with gloves after 1882 but maybe I took Greenfield out a little early. Cleary was still mixing with the best and beating second tier fighters like Goode and Sherriff. Cardiff had a great 1884 and beat Bradbury but arguably a bit early to include, keep it up, fascinating work.
     
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  2. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In Maarch 1885 the oldest heavyweight rankings I have seen were published;
    1-Sullivan
    2-Mitchell
    3-Fryer
    4-Burke
    5-Greenfield
    6-Kilrain
    7-Ryan
    8-McCaffrey
    9-Cleary.
    Dont know why not a top 10 but pretty near our workings!
    Fryer is the only fighter not in on eof our 1884 yerens and he only came to prominience in early 1885. No Farnan, Godfrey, Cardiff or Thompson.
     
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  3. Levook

    Levook Well-Known Member Full Member

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    This is awesome, thank you!
     
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  4. SimonLock

    SimonLock Member Full Member

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    @mattdonnellon Thanks for your input, it’s helpful seeing how your rankings compare.

    Do you know whether Kilrain fought Greenfield in 1885? I can see some websites list this fight but I can’t find any reports of it, other than to say it was scheduled then cancelled / postponed.
     
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  5. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Mr Gadfly Full Member

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    Keep up the work chief.
     
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  6. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    pretty sure the fight was cancelled. Also, dont think the Cleary-Robertson-Couper fight took place.
     
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  7. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    You fellas putting this info on here are doing a fantastic job.
    This kind of thing I find fascinating and could read about all day.
    Thanks
     
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  8. SimonLock

    SimonLock Member Full Member

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    1885

    January 1885
    9/1/85 Dominick McCaffrey (#3) fought a 3-round no-decision bout with Denny Kelliher.
    12/1/85 George Godfrey (#9) fought a 3-round no-decision bout with Jack Loring.
    12/1/85 John L Sullivan (#1) beat Alf Greenfield (#2) in a gloved contest on points over 4 rounds.
    15/1/85 George Godfrey (#9) drew with Charles AC Smith over 6 rounds.
    15/1/85 Bill Farnan (#6) fought a 3-round no-decision bout with Abe Hicken.
    19/1/85 John L Sullivan (#1) fought Paddy Ryan (#8), but the fight was stopped by police in the first round and declared a no-contest.

    On 19th January 1885, Englishman George Fryer arrived in America, and challenged any man to meet him. It was noted in the National Police Gazette that Burke (#5), Mitchell (#7) and McCaffrey (#3) are the main targets of this challenge.

    On 24th January 1885, it was reported that Alf Greenfield (#4) and Jake Kilrain (#3) were to fight on 9th February in Union Hall, Cambridge. However, it appears this fight never took place as permission was withheld by the local authorities.

    1) John L Sullivan
    2) Dominick McCaffrey - up by 1
    3) Jake Kilrain - up by 1
    4) Alf Greenfield - down by 2 due to loss to Sullivan
    5) Jack Burke
    6) Bill Farnan
    7) Charlie Mitchell
    8) George Godfrey - up by 1 due to being more active than Ryan
    9) Paddy Ryan - down by 1
    10) Mervine Thompson


    February 1885
    2/2/85 Jack Burke (#5) beat James Dalton on points over 5 rounds.
    6/2/85 Mike Cleary beat James Dalton by 1st round KO.
    7/2/85 Bill Farnan (#6) drew with Tom Lees on points over 3 rounds.
    23/2/85 Charlie Mitchell (#7) beat John Scholes on points over 4 rounds.

    On 23rd February 1885, having recovered from his broken ankle, William Miller again challenged John L Sullivan (#1) to a glove contest. Should Miller sign contracts for a fight, I will reinstate him into the rankings. Until then, he will be treated as retired.

    27/2/85 Alf Greenfield (#4) drew with George Fryer over 4 rounds. It was reported that Greenfield had the best of the contest.

    1) John L Sullivan
    2) Dominick McCaffrey
    3) Jake Kilrain
    4) Alf Greenfield
    5) Jack Burke
    6) Bill Farnan
    7) Charlie Mitchell
    8) George Godfrey
    9) Paddy Ryan
    10) George Fryer - new entry due to draw with Greenfield

    March 1885
    2/3/85 Alf Greenfield (#4) lost to Jack Burke (#5) by decision over 5 rounds. Described as a scientific and hard-hitting contest, Burke demonstrated greater defensive skills and matched Greenfield for punching accuracy. Burke could now reasonably claim to be the English champion, having avenged his previous loss to Greenfield in 1883.

    On 7th March 1885, it was reported that John L Sullivan (#1) had signed articles to fight Dominick McCaffrey (#2) in early April.

    10/3/85 George Godfrey (#8) beat Jimmy Doherty by 1st round KO.
    11/3/85 George Fryer (#10) beat George Rooke by 1st round KO.
    13/3/85 Mike Cleary beat Jack Brady by 1st round KO.
    16/3/85 Dick Matthews won the New Zealand Heavyweight title by beating Jim Pettengell by KO in the 2nd round.
    17/3/85 Jack Burke (#3) drew with Jack Gillespie over 2 rounds before police intervened.

    On 18th March 1885, George Fryer (#9) challenged Paddy Ryan (#10), Charlie Mitchell (#7), Jack Burke (#3), Jake Kilrain (#4), Dominick McCaffrey (#2) and John L Sullivan (#1) to fight him for the American Championship. He placed a forfeit with Richard K Fox to prove his seriousness.

    20/3/85 George Godfrey (#8) beat Jimmy Doherty by 1st round TKO.
    23/3/85 Jack Burke (#3) drew with Alf Greenfield (#6) over 7 rounds. The 2 referees could not agree on a winner, even when an extra round was fought.
    25/3/85 George Fryer (#9) beat Charles Lange by 11th round KO.

    1) John L Sullivan
    2) Dominick McCaffrey
    3) Jack Burke - up 2 due to win and draw with Greenfield
    4) Jake Kilrain
    5) Alf Greenfield - down 1 due to loss and draw with Burke
    6) Bill Farnan
    7) Charlie Mitchell
    8) George Godfrey
    9) George Fryer - up 1 due to win over Rooke
    10) Paddy Ryan - down by 1


    April 1885
    On 1st April 1885, John L Sullivan (#1) was reported as follows:
    "He thought that Fox would bring about a meeting with Paddy Ryan; hoped he would, for he would like to get at Paddy. He considered Alf Greenfield about the best pugilist in the country today, although Jack Burke is clever. Mike Cleary, he said, can knock out any one he can hit."

    On 2nd April 1885, the planned fight between John L Sullivan (#1) and Dominick McCaffrey (#2) was cancelled by police. Both men were charged with conspiring to breach the peace.

    On 5th April 1885, John L Sullivan was reported as follows:
    "McCaffrey’s a good man, but he talks too much. I would have given McCaffrey a chance to make some money some time ago only that he talked too much.
    Mitchell is probably the most artistic fighter I know of, and he is brimful of courage. I think it is even up between Mitchell and Greenfield. They would make a splendid match, and it would be six of one and half a dozen of the other in a fight.
    Mitchell is not an easy man to put down, but if it came to the finish I hardly think he could stand as much punishment as Greenfield. Neither of them has yet been put to test in this country as yet.
    Ryan is a greatly overrated man. He is a good one, of course, but he is not the fighter he ought to be for such a big, powerful man. He has neither strength as a hitter, nor science as a sparrer that one would expect to find in a man as well known as he is.
    Burke is a clever man, indeed, but he has no punishing power. He has a good left hand and often does effective work with it. If he had as much strength as he has science he would be a dangerous man to meet. Burke could not stand the punishment in a long fight either, but as far as he is concerned as a fighter he is about as good a man as either Ryan, Mitchell or Greenfield. It is a toss between the four, and I don’t care to say who is the best man.
    In my opinion Cleary is a smart fellow and as good as any of them. He is liable to do his man up if he can hit in the proper place with his right. He has a very powerful right arm. Jack Dempsey is a promising lad and a thorough fighter, but not heavy enough. ‘The Marine’ is another thorough fighter. Fryer I am satisfied is a good man."


    6/4/85 Mike Cleary beat Frank Crockett by 5th round KO.
    16/4/85 Jake Kilrain (#4) beat John McGlynn by 4th round TKO.

    No changes to the rankings.

    May 1885

    5/5/85 Peter Jackson challenged William Miller. The challenge was accepted.
    5/5/85 Jake Kilrain (#4) drew with George Fryer (#9) over 5 rounds. Fryer knocked Kilrain down in the third round, but otherwise Kilrain had the better of the action.
    In May, George Godfrey (#9) beat Barney Small by 1st round KO.
    20/5/85 Bill Farnan (#7) was beaten by Tom Lees by 12th round KO for the Australian Heavyweight Title.
    22/5/85 Charlie Mitchell (#9) drew with Mike Cleary over 4 rounds.
    25/5/85 Billy Wilson beat Mervine Thompson by 1st round KO to win the Northwest USA Heavyweight Championship.
    28/5/85 Jack Burke (#3) beat John Barnes over 2 rounds before police intervened.
    28/5/85 Peter Jackson won a newspaper decision over Mick Dooley over 4 rounds.

    1) John L Sullivan
    2) Dominick McCaffrey
    3) Jack Burke
    4) Jake Kilrain
    5) Alf Greenfield
    6) Tom Lees - new entry due to win over Farnan
    7) George Fryer - up 2 due to draw with Kilrain
    8) Bill Farnan - down by 2 due to loss to Lees
    9) Charlie Mitchell - down by 2
    10) George Godfrey - down by 2

    Paddy Ryan drops out due to Lees' entry.


    June 1885
    On 4th June 1885, Charlie Mitchell (#9) challenged Sullivan (#1), and listed alternatives as Jack Burke (#3), Paddy Ryan, George Fryer (#7) and Jake Kilrain (#4).

    13/6/85 John L Sullivan (#1) beat Jack Burke (#3) on points over 5 rounds.
    14/6/85 Patsy Cardiff beat Billy Wilson by KO in the 9th round to become the Northwest USA Heavyweight Champion.
    29/6/85 Jack Burke (#4) drew with Charlie Mitchell (#9) on points over 6 rounds.

    1) John L Sullivan
    2) Dominick McCaffrey
    3) Jake Kilrain - up by 1 due to Burke's loss
    4) Jack Burke - down by 1 due to loss to Sullivan
    5) Charlie Mitchell - up by 4 due to draw with Burke
    6) Alf Greenfield - down by 1
    7) Tom Lees - down by 1
    8) George Fryer - down by 1
    9) Patsy Cardiff - new entry due to win over Wilson
    10) Bill Farnan - down by 2
     
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  9. SimonLock

    SimonLock Member Full Member

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    July 1885

    On 1st July 1885, George Fryer (#8) left America and returned to England, having failed to secure a match for the championship.

    1/7/85 Patsy Cardiff (#9) beat Harry McCrossen on points over 4 rounds.
    10/7/85 Jack Burke (#4) beat C Effers by 1st round KO.
    19/7/85 Charles Hadley beat Mervine Thompson by 6th round disqualification.
    25/7/85 Jack Burke (#4) beat William Wells by 1st round KO.
    28/7/85 Jack Burke (#4) beat Frank Witten by 1st round KO.

    No change to the rankings.

    August 1885

    4/8/85 Jack Burke (#4) beat Peter Michael by 2nd round KO.
    7/8/85 Jack Burke (#4) beat John Curtis by 3rd round KO.

    On 22nd August 1885, George Fryer (#8) challenged any man in England for the championship.

    28/8/85 Patsy Cardiff (#10) drew with John Donaldson on points over 4 rounds.
    29/8/85 Jack Burke (#4) beat Mike Haley by 1st round KO.
    29/8/85 John L Sullivan (#1) defeated Dominick McCaffrey (#2) on points over 7 rounds. It has been argued by some modern historians that this was the first world heavyweight title fight under the Marquess of Queensbury rules, although this is disputed. Contemporary sources do not seem to have agreed with this interpretation. However, Sullivan was now clearly the #1 fighter in the world. He had beaten the best from England (Greenfield, Mitchell, Collins) and the best in America (Ryan, Burke, McCaffrey). The only real question mark came from Australia, as an injury to William Miller had prevented Sullivan from proving himself against their Champion. However, their current champion Tom Lees was not seen as a serious contender for world honours, leaving Sullivan as the undisputed champion.

    1) John L Sullivan
    2) Jake Kilrain - up by 1
    3) Jack Burke - up by 1
    4) Dominick McCaffrey - down by 2 due to loss to Sullivan.
    5) Charlie Mitchell
    6) Alf Greenfield
    7) Tom Lees
    8) George Fryer
    9) Patsy Cardiff
    10) Bill Farnan


    September 1885

    5/9/85 Jack Burke (#3) beat Mike Ritchie by 1st round KO.
    30/9/85 Jack Burke (#3) drew with John Clow on points over 4 rounds.

    No changes to the rankings.

    October 1885

    1/10/85 Patsy Cardiff (#9) beat John Donaldson on points over 4 rounds.
    9/10/85 Patsy Cardiff (#9) beat Patsy Mellen on points over 4 rounds.
    11/10/85 Jack Burke (#3) drew with John Clow on points over 4 rounds.
    23/10/85 Patsy Cardiff (#9) beat Jim Brady on points over 4 rounds.
    23/10/85 Jack Burke (#3) drew with Mike Cleary on points over 8 rounds.
    29/10/85 Jake Kilrain (#2) beat Jerry Murphy by 2nd round KO.

    1) John L Sullivan
    2) Jake Kilrain
    3) Jack Burke
    4) Dominick McCaffrey
    5) Charlie Mitchell
    6) Alf Greenfield
    7) Tom Lees
    8) Patsy Cardiff - up by 1 due to wins in the month
    9) George Fryer - down by 1
    10) Mike Cleary - new entry due to draw with Burke

    Bill Farnan drops out due to Cleary's entry

    November 1885

    5/11/85 Patsy Cardiff (#8) drew with Billy Wilson on points over 4 rounds.
    8/11/85 Pat Killen beat Joe Lannon by KO in the 9th round.
    10/11/85 Patsy Cardiff (#8) beat John Curtis by 1st round TKO.
    23/11/85 Jack Burke (#3) drew with Mike Cleary (#10) on points over 9 rounds.

    1) John L Sullivan
    2) Jake Kilrain
    3) Jack Burke
    4) Dominick McCaffrey
    5) Charlie Mitchell
    6) Alf Greenfield
    7) Mike Cleary - up 3 due to draw with Burke
    8) Tom Lees - down by 1
    9) Patsy Cardiff - down by 1
    10) George Fryer - down by 1


    December 1885
    7/12/85 George Godfrey beat Joe Mullen by 3rd round KO.

    In December 1885, James Smith won a heavyweight competition organised by Tom Symond, beating Harry Goodson, Jack Wannop and Tom Longer. On 16th December 1885, Smith beat Jack Davis by 6th round KO for the Championship of England. He had previously won competitions at lower weights, so his move to the unlimited division made him a real contender.

    28/12/85 Jack Burke (#4) beat Mike Cleary (#7) by 3rd round TKO.

    1) John L Sullivan
    2) Jack Burke - up by 1 due to win over Cleary
    3) Jake Kilrain - down by 1
    4) Dominick McCaffrey
    5) Charlie Mitchell
    6) Alf Greenfield
    7) Mike Cleary
    8) Tom Lees
    9) Patsy Cardiff
    10) James Smith - new entry due to tournament win

    George Fryer drops out due to Smith's entry

    1885 Year End Rankings

    My rankings at the end of 1885 are therefore as follows:
    1. John L Sullivan - Aged 27 - American Champion (beat Greenfield in '84 and '85, and Ryan, Burke and McCaffrey in '85)
    2. Jack Burke - Aged 24 - English Champion (drew with Mitchell and Kilrain in '84, beat Greenfield, lost to Sullivan and drew Mitchell in '85)
    3. Jake Kilrain - Aged 26 - American contender (beat Godfrey in '83, drew Mitchell in '84, drew Fryer in '85)
    4. Dominick McCaffrey - Aged 22 - American contender (beat Mitchell in '84, lost to Sullivan in '85)
    5. Charlie Mitchell - Aged 24 - English Champion claimant (drew with Kilrain and Burke and lost to McCaffrey in '84, drew Burke and Cleary in '85)
    6. Alf Greenfield - Aged 32 - Former English Champion (lost to Sullivan in '84 & '85, drew Fryer, lost & drew Burke in '85)
    7. Mike Cleary - Aged 27 - American fighter (lost to Kilrain and Burke in '84, drew Mitchell and Burke in '85, lost Burke in '85)
    8. Tom Lees - Aged 27 - Australian Champion (beat Farnan in '85)
    9. Patsy Cardiff - Aged 22 - Canadian fighter (beat Wilson in '85)
    10. James Smith - Aged 22 - English Champion claimant (won tournament in '85, but best English talent was in America)
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  10. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    George Fryer was an interesting fighter, a footnote of 1885. An amateur champion in England from 1881 and he had sparred Greenfield(then English title claimant) when only 18, he went to the States in 1885 when about 24 years old and fought a 4 round draw with Greenfield. He then defeated decent mid-level American opposition, Charles Laing and George Rooke before fighting Kilrain to a 5 round draw. Boxrec is a bit harsh on Fryer as detailed reports of the fight have George competitive in the second and fourth while dropping Kilrain in the third. Jake probably edged it but it was close. Fryer packed up, went back to England and while he won a few low level fights, that was the length of his sojourn at the top level.He boxed several exhibitions with Tug Wilson, Greenfield etc and defeated a Jack Turner over 6 rounds in 1887.
     
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  11. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    My 1885 year end;
    1-Sullivan
    2-McCaffrey
    3-Burke
    4-Mitchell
    5-Kilrain
    6-Cleary
    7-Cardiff
    8-Killen
    9-Godfrey
    10-Lees

    Simonlock has Greenfield and Smith, I have Godfrey and Killen.I feel Godfrey did nothing to lose his ranking and Killen with his run of victories and defeat of Joe Lannon deserved to get rated. Then again, Jem Smith has the same argument while Greenfield like Fryer was effectively finished as a contender.
     
  12. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The 1885 December fight between Godfrey and Talbot actually took place in 1886 and it was Isaac, not Ike, Talbot.
     
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  13. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    What website can we find the monthly ratings for a given year ?
     
  14. SimonLock

    SimonLock Member Full Member

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    Good spot, thanks. I've checked the newspapers and you are right - both Boxrec and CBZ list this in the wrong year.
     
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  15. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Mile Cleary got a bad deal from the record keepers, as well as the Robertson Couper "loss" that never happrned, Boxrec has him losing to Young Mitchell in June of '88. In fact it was Tom Cleary who was ko'ed in 30 rounds. Interestingly, they made it up to him by crediting him with a ko win in 1894, several months after he died!
     
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