Hagler wins by mid or late tko. And some have stated Carlos was too tall for Marvin but Hearns is two inches taller than Carlos and look what happened there.
Height should never have been cited as a significant advantage for Monzon. Sugar Ray Seales was 6'1." Willie Monroe was six feet even, Boogaloo a half inch taller than The Worm, as was Obelmejias. Early on, guys like Seales, Watts, and Monroe posed some issues for Marv, but he was well experienced at effectively dealing with world class six footer middleweights by the time he became champion. Geraldo and Scypion were about the same height as Carlos. Cyclone Hart was exactly the same height as Monzon. I don't think we'd be noticing the height disparity too much in this one. Hearns is not a good analogy for Carlos. Tommy didn't have the punch resistance, stamina and durability Monzon possessed. Briscoe was a monster puncher, and Valdez is the guy who dropped and stopped Bad Bennie. Between them, they have a grand total of one flash knockdown and one momentary upright stunner on Carlos in 55 total rounds. [By the way, I'm confident that a prime Briscoe would have taken the best shots Hearns had to offer and broken Tommy's ribs in the process, if not his jaw. Too good a chin for Hearns to blast out early, then Tommy would be too beaten and enervated by the latter rounds to survive to the final bell. Yeah, Hearns would have an insurmountable lead on points by the end. The trouble for him is that end would not be the final bell, but the referee waving it off over him as Tommy was staring up at the lights in his head.]
I got you to stop reading. Now if I could only get you to stop posting the rest of the site would probably throw me a party. HaHa!
Yes, Anubis; it's great to have a thread that isn't based on blind hero worship! I can make a case for Hagler based on his greatest performances. Hagler was very accurate and versatile against Sibson and Hamsho. He used much more movement than later in his career. Carlos was a little more straightforward in his approach. Jab- right hand-left hook was his staple, but obviously he was very effective with it! If Hagler could negate the jab with movement, perhaps Carlos would struggle to wear Hagler down with his pet combinations? Hagler's speed is another weapon for Marvin. He had very fast hands at his best and hit hard enough to get Monzon's attention. Hagler also counter punched very well, so I think he would be in and out against Monzon. I think Hagler has attributes that could give Monzon trouble. Trouble is, you can say the same in Monzon's favour! An absolutely fascinating fight.
When considering how Hagler might have competed in the light heavyweight ranks, I look to the same match I think of most when evaluating his mobility, and Hagler-Briscoe has been on youtube. Marv played the cutie, circling the perimeter of the ring while deploying his long right jab. Benvenuti and Griffith also possessed good versatility, and Carlos went 4-0 against them, but it would be good for Hagler to remember shifting between "Destruct and Destroy" mode and sticking and moving. Such versatility could work against Marv though, if it causes his concentration to become diffused. Monzon would have no such issues. Hagler had variables, Carlos had constants. If either gets confused, it won't be Monzon. I'll never forget the early expression of furrowed bafflement on Marv's face in the early going against Geraldo as he continually switched stances while trying to figure Marcos out. Once he did, the quizzical look vanished, and his brow smoothed out. Fear wasn't something you ever saw him display, but the supremely confident Geraldo certainly made him visibly go :huh for a little while.
Again, you make fair points. The thing is, when Marvin went full bore ferocious he was tremendous! He made mincemeat of Minter in a great performance, but didn't look so hot against Antuofermo, who Minter beat. That does tally with your argument about Marv's psyche. I also see what you are saying about the implacable will of Monzon. I noticed that against Benvenuti. He seemed to be walking Nino down and giving him nowhere to go. That requires complete confidence in your ability, not just physical attributes. It's like Monzon was saying "I can walk through anything you've got!". Well, I'm going to watch more of Monzon to try and find something to come back at you with!
Consistency, consistency, consistency. And like Geraldo in the early going with Hagler, Carlos sometimes seemed to be more confusing in his focused steadfastness than his challengers in their attempts to mistakenly exploit his consistencies as predictability. It appeared that no matter what one attempted to throw at Monzon, he was still going to act on what HE wanted to do. Part of the reason Ali took so long to halt the vastly inferior Mildenberger was because Muhammad accommodated his southpaw challenger by atypically circling counterclockwise, and concerning himself too much with what the German wanted to do. A decade later for Dunn, the mystery of how to deal with a southpaw challenger was gone. As soon and Ali and Dundee decided to stop carrying Richard, Muhammad went directly to the right lead. I believe Dunn would have lasted a lot longer with the near physical peak Ali of Mildenberger, whereas the seasoned 1976 Ali of Dunn would have effortlessly dispatched Karl within the same five round time frame he and Angelo predicted for Richard. Experience and seasoning was the difference there, not athleticism. It was the one instance during the 1970s where Muhammad was clearly better than he was in the 1960s [and as an amateur], much smarter and more confident in how to deal with southpaw opposition. Monzon wouldn't give Hagler's being a southpaw a second thought. Once action got underway though, I think Marv would be extremely vexed about Carlos disregarding Hagler's normal southpaw stance and switch hitting. Monzon would easily win the test of wills concerning movement and positioning in the ring, I believe. :goodYeah, please do that! I would suggest Monzon-Briscoe II from 1972 and Hagler-Briscoe, as that's the only common opponent comparison available to view. By the time he fought Marv in 1978, Bennie was aging, but had recently stopped Chiaverini and would post a few more good wins over decent opponents, like 18-1 Teddy Mann [shortly to become a popular staple on the early ESPN Top Rank Boxing cards] and Norberto Sabater [a huge fifth round upset which sent Sabater's career crashing for Bad Bennie's final win]. Bennie retired in excellent physical condition. His legs, chin, skills and power never deserted him, but he could not overcome the diminished speed, timing and reflexes which otherwise usually depart when those other qualities do get retained. [That Duran never, ever lost his timing was a key factor in his three decade longevity, a genuinely freaky occurrence considering his spotty post LW conditioning and reduced activity level. It's how he decked Pazienza for the first time in Vinnie's career. Moore and Holmes also managed to retain their timing, although in Larry's case, the advent of contact lenses he could wear in competition was all important. Give Corbett the same eyesight enhancing technology Holmes was able to use, then he takes Jeffries I via 25 round decision.] Along with Monzon footage, do look at some peak wins of Briscoe's. He may have been the opponent Carlos respected and admired most, and possibly the closest approximation to Hagler of anybody Monzon defended against. Unfortunately, it seemed that Bennie lost whenever he appeared on national television, but we can now see his wins, some of his knockouts, and prime performances thanks to on-line services. [There's plenty available, including Mann, Chiaverini, Eddie (EMM) Gregory, Mundine [which got him to Valdez II for his second world title shot], Harold Richardson [from 1970], and Luis Vinales II [which got him to the Monzon rematch].
I'm on it! I've seen some of Briscoe's fights, but he merits closer inspection. That's the wonder of youtube; you can always find a hidden gem! Do you have Monzon as number 1 Middleweight of all time?
I do have him as my number one middleweight champion. Guys like Fitz, Langford, Greb and Walker may have been better middleweights, but Carlos was on a tear through the 1970s and finished on a high note at the brink of turning 36, with nothing left to prove. [Hagler didn't really secure his name in Philly until nearly decapitating Willie Monroe in their rubber match the month after Monzon-Valdez II, and wouldn't clinch his place as top World contender until Seales III in February 1979, on a live national telecast. Marv likes to claim Monzon-Hagler could have taken place before Carlos retired, but Hagler was still largely a regional phenomenon in the American northeast to the globetrotting Escopeta.] New Englanders were enraged that Antuofermo got the shot at the unusually dull and colorless Corro before Hagler received his opportunity, but Vito had been the EBU LMW Champion, so like Monzon, was internationally established. Denny Moyer, Griffith and Dagge had all been world champions by Antuofermo-Corro, so the case can be made that Vito had the better resume of wins at the time. Living in New Hampshire then, I don't recall any great regional protest over the Valdez-Briscoe [for Monzon's vacated title]-Corro-Ronnie Harris [who was undefeated and an Olympic champion], Valdez II challenge sequence, but Vito seemed to really set off that Boston-NYC rivalry among New England sports interests. Sure, Marv went back and forth with Philly boxers, and there were spirited basketball and hockey histories between Philly and Boston, but always with an undercurrent of respect through all the intensity there. Bostonians HATED New York City though, and Vito was identified with NYC. [Hell, I have an aunt and cousins not far from Albany, and everybody THERE hates NYC! If NYC seceded from upstate New York, not too many would miss it. I doubt they'd mind if New Jersey took it.] Vito was acknowledged as an exciting fighter, so when Antuofermo-Corro proved to be a stinker, Hugo took the blame. People in New England still wanted to see Hagler knock Corro's head off, even as a former champion.
Monzon struggled with a past prime and former WW Emile Griffth before stopping him in the 14th round. They fought again when Griffth was even older and Monzon won by very close decision. Griffith was great but he wasn't a big puncher like Hearns or as slick as Leonard, he wasn't close to prime either. He also lost 3 times and drew 9 times vs. mostly bums (with the exception of Briscoe). He decisioned Briscoe in a rematch. At the end of Monzon's career he won two close decisions over Rodrigo Valdes... who was far from an all-time great. Valdes was tough and he was only stopped once in 85 pro fights. He fought Briscoe 3 times and stopped him once... Briscoe was only stopped once despite facing Monzon twice and Hagler once. Still, Valdes wasn't a huge puncher but he did drop Monzon. At the end of Hagler's career he lost a widely disputed decision to Ray Leonard. Leonard was much better than Valdes. Hagler was down once in 67 pro fights... and that was a slip. He lost 3 and drew twice... all were disputed. He avenged two of the losses and both of the draws, all by KO. He knocked out Seales, Monroe, Watts, Antuofermo, Minter, Hamsho x2, Roldan, Hearns, Mugabi, and others. He decisioned a very determined Duran in a closer than expected fight... but it was a clear win for Hagler. His loss to Leonard was very close, SD.
I rate Monzon as the greatest MW ever. Hagler would trouble him - but Monzon always found a solution - Monzon by decison or TKO due to a cut.