Monzon - Who feels that he's...

I lived for tennis and boxing back then. I used to travel 30k's on weekends to play the closest big cities fixtures before i eventually moved there for work. when i first came here i used to divide my time between here and the TW tennis forums. Lendl was actually my favorite player along with Yannick Noah. Noah frustrated me because tho he was the greatest athlete i'd ever seen on a tennis court with one of the best serves ever the rest of his game lacked punch and penetration. His forehand was loopy with his weight going too much up vs forward and his volley's floated too much. If he was more solid off the ground like a Becker he could have been anything imo.

 

Ah, stop being a melodramatic ham, fella, that was like listening to a snobby thespian bemoaning all the plebs in the audience who he's better than.

It's possible to think that Monzon was a legend and atg fighter while actually putting him under the microscope and trying to be objective and unbiased. Obviously not everyone does that and you get the odd tool here and there who can't distinguish between flash and substance, Monzon being one of the ultimate examples of the latter superseding the former. He gets his due on here and amongst knowledgeable fans and insiders everywhere I've seen; the demographic who think otherwise in my experience mostly aren't hardened fans and/or detailed observers/interpreters of the sport barring a few examples.

If you were posting this on a Facebook group where people have Lomachenko and Mayweather in top 10s and such, I'd get with it, but it comes across as patronising on here. Most of us aren't idiots, though you constantly seem to bemoan most of the forum as such if they don't agree with you. You're clearly an intelligent, literate person, I don't get the constant moaning and weariness of having to tolerate and re-educate idiots with intellectual dishonesty and the like. You're a good, valuable poster but I've seen better on here over the years who haven't half your attitude tbh. I enjoy a fair chunk of what you contribute and don't want to be at odds but you bake my head on occasion acting like you have a monopoly on the truth.

There are some on here and elsewhere who think that Monzon sits atop the all time middleweight rankings without argument and was an unbeatable h2h force, when middleweight is a historically deep and hotly contested classic division with a myriad of great fighters throughout history. Monzons achievement in his title reign, such consistency and focus, is a remarkable one, well worthy of inclusion and discussion where the greatest middleweights are concerned. So are the achievements of fighters who fought in deeper eras and beat better opposition but ultimately lost more as a result. I don't understand people getting offended at the idea or notion that a fighter like Marshall, Williams, Booker or Burley would stand a serious shot at beating Monzon or maybe even be the favourite despite not having the acclaimed championship reign that Carlos did. Or a crazy special talent like Jones who didn't hang around long at the weight to gain tenure there but blitzed some solid fighters and comfortably beat a fighter like Hopkins even though Hopkins was a bit green at the time.

 

Cool. I think I remember you having Sam Stosur as your pic on here, times ago? She was a player I really liked. I grew up with Sampras, Agassi, Rafter, Ivanisevic and the like. Late career Becker etc and then the coming of Federer after Safin never lived up to his potential. I loved Goran Ivanisevic, I was crushed when he lost that third time in the Wimbledon final and must have been the only kid in the country cheering him on against Henman in 2001. I love Federer too tbh, that level of physicality, all round game and artistry is like nothing I've ever seen.

Justine Henin was my favourite female player, I don't think Serena would've been on twenty odd slams if Justine had stayed injury free. Oh, and I always wanted to ruin Elena Dementieva in bed.

You're right about Noah, he was a physical monster but lacked refinement and consistent technique from what I've seen. Tsonga reminds me of him a bit.

 

Damn i'd forgotten even having her as my pic. That would have been when she won the US Open in 2011 i reckon.

You grew up in a great era of tennis. Sampras was something else and Agassi was a big player as well. Goran was a weapon when he was on and had the most overpowering serve of his era tho i think Samps was a teeny bit "better". Fedex is just sublime and possibly the greatest player to watch out of all of them.

I adored Henin's backhand, what a weapon. She was also so mentally tough. I remember her beating Serena in that controversial FO match. Henin actually had a fine record against her in Majors so you are dead right imo.

Dementieva definitely wasn't ugly!! There's certainly been some hotties and i find it difficult to pick one off the cuff right now LMAO

Noah just needed more punch in all things not serve. His serve and athleticism had to win him matches and it was very draining.

 

Monzon was a goddamn thoroughbred. Function over form, as they say.

 

Greb would storm all over Monzon IMO. Steele and Jones Jr also give Monzon major problems.

A middleweight such as Eduardo Lausse would IMO always have a live chance against Monzon.

 

Ugly as homemade sin to watch, but he morphed into what he needed to be in a given situation, getting as maximum results as possible while giving away the least.

He'd be great at calculating averages and probably pretty good at business with that kind of mindset, but I can't stand watching the guy. Boxing is supposed to be about risk, and the acceptance of risk in the process of plying your own thing. He flies in the face of that.

 

He's in the same category has Larry Holmes imo, a great fighter who could on his best day best anyone, but still has critics.
Maybe a mix of style a or personality they both had that rubbed some the wrong way?

 

Loved the Tennis analogy and it was sorely needed. I wasn't into tennis as much as you were back in the 80's, but I did watch a decent amount of it growing up. I agree with a lot of what you had to say here, and in subsequent posts, my only contention would be the line of "when he came onto the scene" was the most powerful player... greatest forehand etc etc. I believe that is after he kinda transformed himself in the very late 70's and early 80's. Prior to that, and my memory could be very bad on it, I think he continually lost in finals and wasn't really as dominate as he later became in the 80's. So maybe you meant, once he came onto the scene after growing into his game, as opposed to literally, when he came onto the professional Tennis scene early in his career.

Anyways, great analogy and thank you for reminding of those great times of Mac Attack vs. Lendil (loved him beating John as I hated him at the time) and Becker. The serve and volley guy against the baseliner... what an epic contrast in styles. I had no idea you were so into tennis my friend, but it seems like it's been a passion of yours for many years. So your all time greatest female and male tennis player would be?

 

Sampras had the best serve I've ever seen pal, the smarmy *******. His second serve was just as accurate, fast and well-disguised as the first, it was unfair. Just a shade in front of Goran's because he held it under pressure much better.

Ivanisevic was a beast, he should've won more really but his all-round game was a bit inconsistent and his backhand let him down. He was a lovable maverick though and a very human character on court, my grandma loved him as a player but never pronounced his name correctly once.

Henin's backhand was out of this world, she had astounding power packed into such a little body. Sort of the female Federer. I hated that she folded against Mauresmo those two times at Wimbledon and in Oz because she was a superior player and it was so uncharacteristic.

 

You know your tennis. My favorite player was another guy that flew under the radar, Stephan Edberg...I believe he won Wim 3 times and the US Open 2x just couldn't hand the clay

 

Tsonga is a very talented player. I've been expecting big things from him.

 

Carlos monzon was a great in a mediocre era, he was very well rounded, good in every area, but he never fought a ATG, he couldnt have done better than he did against the opposition of the time, but how would he look against a James toney, sugar ray Robinson or marvin hagler.

 

Monzon UD Federer
Serena SD Hagler
Roddick MD Razor Ruddock

There

I'm off to the tennis forum to ask their thoughts on Marquez - Morales

 

Thank you!!!