Moral victory is what it's all about in Hopkins vs. Calzaghe!

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Decebal, Feb 4, 2008.


  1. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    I am somewhat surprised to see that many here debate in earnest who the victor in this fight will be or whether or not the judges will score the fight fairly. To me, it's obvious who the winner will be and irrelevant whether the judges will give the nod to the actual winner.

    I am baffled, however, when I see knowledgeable boxing fans proposing to take a scant interested in this fight, citing as reason the difference in the level of performance that the two men are likely to display on the night. Some are even thinking so far ahead that they campaign for a Calzaghe fight with Dawson, because he displays elite skills, implying that Hopkins no longer does. Incredibly short-sigthed, in my opinion!

    Surely everyone must realise that the real victor of Hopkins vs. Calzaghe will not be he who hits more whilst being hit less but he who turns out to be the more competent ring-general, the superior and more flexible strategic planner and implementor and the mentally stronger, more intelligent and artful operator. Are these not "skills" too?

    The reason why Calzaghe was so impressive in his performance against Kessler - his most significant victory to date - is that he dominated the young, likable and brave Dane mentally, through sheer strength of will, showing supreme stamina and speed, tactically, enforcing a superior jab, reacting well and working around his gameplan, and morally, by fighting a cleaner fight than he was expected to or could have gotten away with. Had Calzaghe been knocked out in the last round by Kessler's punches, he would still have been the moral victor in that fight. To me, this is clear!

    Similarly, if Hopkins wins the mental battle prior to the fight, managing to force Calzaghe to enter the ring with an inappropriate attitude, if he proves to be the better ring-general on the night, implementing and asserting a winning strategy that catches Calzaghe by surprise and outwits him regularly, if he employs artful tricks of gamesmanship successfully to make Calzaghe lose his nerve and draw him into fighting scrappily, if he shows more will to win in the crucial moments of the fight, certain to be showcased with typical aplomb, Hopkins will be the moral victor in this encounter, irrespective of the number of effective punches thrown by Calzaghe in comparison, or the decision of the judges.

    I am surprised to notice that quite a few knowledgeable fans fail to consider these aspects of the sport important. At this stage in their career, given the age difference between them, these facets are all important to me. However, they are all important in and of themselves too, because boxing is not just about speed, strength, endurance and precision. The mental and moral aspects of the sport are crucial, I would argue.

    I would also like to add that whilst I agree that the referee might play a salutary role as Hopkins' accomplice in this fight, I will expect Calzaghe to use his youth and freshness, stamina and strength, fitness and especially speed to overcome that imbalance and assert himself within the limits accepted by the referee.

    So, if you are still uncertain why Hopkins has taken this fight, think how important the moral victory would be to him, against Calzaghe, and question yourself whether a fighter who competes for the moral victory against the odds stacked high by such a formidable opponent doesn't deserve our unstinted praise and admiration.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Cowboys are cool.
     
  3. dan-b

    dan-b Guest

    Good post apart from one thing. Getting knocked out in the last round doesn't give you a moral victory in my opinion.
     
  4. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    You're wrong, kid.

    Kessler needed the knock-out and Calzaghe could have danced around him in that last round. Instead, he decided to put the last nail in Kessler's coffin by holding true, taking his best punches like a man and getting out alive.
     
  5. Dorfmeister

    Dorfmeister Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What has been said in this post, I have been sayin for long and as soon as the fight was officially announced. I don't know about moral issues but boxing is not just numbers ( stats, punch output, age, height, reach) but is really about who has your number... Hopkins had Winky's number and he was behind in jabs and total punches thrown and landed ( just ahead on powerpunch stats - any punch other than a jab), Calzaghe surely had Kessler's number and that was reflected in numbers as well. The thing was defined well by Max Kellerman at the start of this last fight, Kessler's boxing fundamentals to beat Calzaghe's unorthodox athleticism like Pavlik to Taylor - in the end, it didn't, Calzaghe spoiled Kessler's boxing... The game is almost all mental and if you mean "moral victory" as taking your opponent's confidence away and commanding, controlling the fight, the tempo, the pace, that's all good. Calzaghe handspeed may get to be deceptive for Hopkins and Hopkins' counterpunch timing may get to be frustrating for Calzaghe... All of this will go to the scorecards - remember the judges have 3 minutes ( plus 1 minute) to decide whom are they giving the round to, they have no time to go into stats and connect rates...

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  6. dan-b

    dan-b Guest

    Shall we talk like adults? Thanks.:good

    I think we have crossed wires. I thought you were saying had Kessler knocked Calzaghe out in the last round the moral victory would have been with Joe.
     
  7. Gneus7

    Gneus7 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Hopkins won't get a moral victory if he fights too negatively like against Eastman or if he fights too dirty.
     
  8. BigBone

    BigBone Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Nice post man!

    Of course the mental (not moral) part is very important in boxing and I agree absolutely that Calaghe got into Kessler's head and never let him back in the fight (altough Mikkel fought like a warrior in the 12th landing his biggest shots in the second half of the fight). These are important weapons in our sport or in any other sport.

    However the biggest counterpoint to your post is the April fight itself and the competitors. Both guys are very very tough mentally, very well aware what’s going in the ring and they are both 40+ fight, 25+year experienced crafty veteran warriors so even if the mental battle is in important thing I can’t see any other fight today where mental battle could be a MINOR issue. No way that Hopkins can get into Calzaghe’s head and vice versa.

    Of course sometimes Joe gets carried away but that when he really wants to get an instant revenge to a great shot or something so he’s not a wild man or a furious attacker to be counter-punched easily. So he becomes aggressive very intelligently and usually after he got caught not before. And Calzaghe's probably the most dangerous when he suddenly strikes back but then again he always knows what’s going on. It's not easy to break him. And of course no one is breaking Hopkins mentally. He’s the finest of the mental warriors.

    So at the age of 36 and 42, I don’t see them letting the other guy get into their head. It’s gonna be a pure skill vs. skill battle between two great awkward legends.
     
  9. Dorfmeister

    Dorfmeister Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes, he will b'cause being dirty without being penalised is a part of the tricks and wits. When did a clean fighter earn moral victories just for that reason? Even Joe roughed poor ole Mikkel Kessler up and had a smile in his face and embracing arms to him at the final bell... Hopkins is a great dirty fighter - as of late, Roy Jones Jr was the one to notice him hitting JT low on the blind side of Jay Nady as a HBO commentator ... Bernard grabbed Winky's right arm and nailed him real good with double short hooks on the blind side of Robert Byrd all night long... And when Byrd or Nady tried to warn him ( for grabbing and breaking off without punching, not just clinching) he would open his arms and play the victim. And I'm not sure the cut on JT's head and on Winky's eyebrow were that accidental. There are no moral victories in boxing, there is no moral in boxing as in life... I'm sure Bernard would say Calzaghe is a great fighter and all he did was just to promote the fight in the end, as long as he wins in amoral fashion.
     
  10. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    It seems to me you are arguing Hopkins could beat Calzaghe, because it's likely "he has Calzaghe's number". I, on the other hand, am arguing that although Hopkins won't beat Calzaghe, because he doesn't have enough in the tank anymore, due to his age, he could end up convincing everyone that had he had as much as Joe in the tank, (had they both been to an equal extent in their prime), he would have beaten Calzaghe, because the extent to which Hopkins "has Calzaghe's number" is greater than the extent to which "Calzaghe has Hopkins' number" i.e. Hopkins finds, implements and enforces a flexible, responsive strategy that would have beaten Calzaghe had he had enough in the tank.
     
  11. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    Physical aspects include: speed, strength, power, endurance, agility, etc.

    Mental aspects include: depth of concentration, length of time for which you can concentrate deeply, speed of thought, analytical skills, etc.

    Moral aspects include: courage, resolve, resilience, nerve, etc.

    All these are tightly linked.

    In my post, I suggested that the mental and moral aspects of sport are as important as the physical aspects.

    I used "moral" in two separate ways, however: figuratively "Moral victory" and literally, to refer to moral aspects of the sport.

    In that case, how would you explain that Hopkins has taken this fight? His physical skills, because it seems you are referring to these, are considerably inferior to Calzaghe's. He would have no chance to win the moral victory. Fortunately, this is not the case. Hopkins can win the moral victory by proving that his mental and moral skills are superior to Calzaghe's, and, had his physical skills been as close to what they once were as Calzaghe's presently were, he would have won.
     
  12. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    I think that as long as the referee doesn't altogether throw the rule-book out of the window, Hopkins could be the moral victor. You are right, however, when you suggest that by killing the fight completely, Hopkins would have no chance to prove his superior mental and moral qualities.
     
  13. Dorfmeister

    Dorfmeister Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I didn't say that Hopkins has Calzaghe's number but I also don't necessarily agree with your take on Hopkins' motive about the up-coming match. I have seen Bernard breathing deep in between rounds against Winky in July and it wouldn't take Einstein to predict that he won't be able to match Calzaghe's workrate if the pace gets to be very, very hard ( well, I also don't know how will Cal react if the going gets very tough early)... Again on your assumption and Hopkins' moral victory issue, I really think he would have better options to end his career than to convince people ( in sure to be defeat) about what he would have done had he been in Cal's condition... No, man, I believe he is really convinced he can take it maybe because he is not convinced about Calzaghe himself. Maybe he doesn't feel Joe is the alpha male in the wolf pack or using another view based on your own avatar, that Joe is not some Dirty Harry or one Sergio Leone's Western Spaghetti's character. I am not also convinced about this but I am about Hops' capacity to make this into a very close, tough fight.
     
  14. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    A moral victory over Calzaghe could still help Hopkins climb back up into the pound-for-pound top ten, whilst dropping Calzaghe to fourth or fifth, depending on each fighter's performance on the night. Surely that is some incentive, wouldn't you say?
     
  15. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    Yes, they are, McGrain...if not particularly smart.