More impressive legacy: Jack Johnson or Muhammad Ali?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by jaffay, Sep 29, 2010.


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  1. Titan1

    Titan1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ali, but Johnson is not very far behind.
     
    Titan1, Oct 1, 2010
    Titan1, Oct 1, 2010
    #31
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    Perhaps not verry much.

    Even putting aside the controvesy surrounding the result, we could say that Marvin Hart is the Ken Norton or Jimmy Young figure on his record.
     
    janitor, Oct 1, 2010
    janitor, Oct 1, 2010
    #32
  3. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Wouldn't Doug Jones fit better?
     
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    #33
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    Hart did go on to win the heavyweight title after he beat Johnson, so he is arguably nearer to Norton.

    You read an ocasional article from the era that implies Hart was something special, but I just dont see it looking at his record.

    The Pollack biography on Hart will be interesting to say the least.
     
    janitor, Oct 1, 2010
    janitor, Oct 1, 2010
    #34
  5. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What's known about the Hart-Johnson fight? It was Johnson's only defeat near his prime, right? Was it close/disputed?
     
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    #35
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The San Fransisco Call called it "an entirely just decision."

    Hart seems to have taken a horrible beating on the way to his win though. He was the more damaged party at the end of the fight, that seems clear.

    Greggains justifying his decision: "Hart won because he was aggressive throughout. Johnson, in my opinion, dogged it."


    A lot of press coverage was given over to how neither man would have any hope in against Jeffries, who was still the dominant figure int he division.
     
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    #36
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ok. Thanks. This seems to be more or less a prime loss for Johnson. He was 27 and the coloured champion.
     
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    #37
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Big, big learning fight for Johnson at a guess. I'd be very surprised if this fight didn't make him wiser - and why not better? Is Hart comparable to Burns? If so, is Burns not far and away the superior fighter? And Johnson slaughtered Burns.
     
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    #38
  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    It was basicaly Johnsons only meaningful defeat over a fifteen year period. He also had a DQ loss to Joe Jeanette after he hit him low in a short bout.

    There was a lot of controvesy about the result of the Hart fight. The verdict drew a lot of criticism, despite the predudices of the press of the day. Even so there is enough of a split in opinion to render the result uncertain.
     
    janitor, Oct 1, 2010
    janitor, Oct 1, 2010
    #39
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Janitor, are there any day-after reports actually questioning the decision? To me, it DOES sound like Johnson won more rounds, but i've never read actual criticism of the referee...more a note of uncertainty than anything else.
     
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    #40
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, but those are often the enigmas of boxing. You just never know.

    If Johnson had got a fight with Jeffries in 04 or 05 and won, it seems to me that this would be be very much akin to Clay beating Liston. It would be a huge win. So, as Janitor says, add a win over a prime Langford and one or two other convincing ones and he really would have an argument with Louis and Ali as the best HW.
     
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    #41
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Jeffries admitted that he would never fight Johnson had he beaten Hart.
     
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    #42
  13. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ok. Damn, would be interesting with some good film of this. Would be very interesting to see a prime Jeffries as well. Wasn't his fight with Sharkey filmed? Has any of that survived?
     
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    #43
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Of course. But as evidence, the ease with which Johnson treated the superior Burns is a big clue for an improved Johnson. We have to write it off as an "enigma of boxing", basically without evidence, to nullify that clue (if you want to nullify it).

    However, I don't have any problem with this being denoted as Johnson's prime...he was certainly of age. You can get better during your physical prime for sure - even after it.
     
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    McGrain, Oct 1, 2010
    #44
  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm actually impressed with fighters who admit to that. As long as they do I can swallow it. Like Leonard has done when it concerns the timing of the Duran rematch and the Hagler fight.

    It's an extremely tough business, and who am I to criticise these guys for not risking too much. You'll always love guys like Greb and Ali all the same, though. For just putting everything on the line.
     
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    Bokaj, Oct 1, 2010
    #45
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