Most impressive 6 fight streak at HW? (H2H factored) Is it Usyk? (Read OP)

Frazier was not prime after FOTC and he definitely was not after being demolished by Foreman. There’s a night and day difference between the Frazier of the first and second Ali fights.

 

Then in that case, neither was Joshua after his loss to Ruiz.

Foreman was a bad stylistic match up for Frazier. Frazier bounced back beautifully. The idea that he was only prime for FOTC but never after is silly and just a way to discredit Ali. We can make the same case for Ali not being in his prime in 1971 since he only had 2 fights prior to fighting Frazier.

Frazier of 1974 is still a historically greater fighter than Fury or Joshua.

 

Would still lose to both

 

Nope. Unless Fury can stop Frazier (he can't), he will get broken down by body shots and a work rate he simply can't keep up with.

And even if that were true, Foreman would demolish both.

This isn't how this works. Foreman is a lock for any top 10 all time heavyweight list. Frazier and Liston are locks for the top 15 and usually top 10. Ali is 5-1 vs them.

Fury has a thin resume and in no way ranks in the top 15 or even top 20 on any reasonable list. Joshua does not rank in any top 20 list either.

Again, there is a desperation in trying to make Usyk's resume better than it is. Its a fine resume. He deserves credit for cleaning out his era and giving us a clear undisputed champion. I am a fan but his fans are getting way carried away. His winning streak isn't the greatest ever in any reasonable sense and using a bizzare criteria of 6 fights h2h streak doesn't change it.

We rank fighters by the quality of their opposition in terms of how that opposition ranks in a historical sense.

 

That has nothing to do with what I said.

I never said he was only prime for FOTC. His prime spanned from '69 (at a stretch you can say late '69) to FOTC, but it's clear as day as he was past it after the first Ali fight.

He was hospitalized after FOTC, took the rest of the year off, and inexplicably had a massive drop in quality when he came back

Numerous accounts in the media noticed he was not the same.

"Joe has bad headaches but he’ll be alright. But not the same! No, not the same!" -Florence Frazier after FOTC

“I, for one, think that Joe didn’t look at all like that indestructible machine…my conclusion: Frazier has lost interest in the sport of flat noses…Well, Joe Frazier is a Pro. He has made a lot of money. He is ready to retire. Anytime. And now is anytime…He proved to be the best man of his time…Joe Frazier became the most important athlete that night of March 8, 1971 when he displaced Muhammad Ali as number one." Jose Torres after Frazier's defense against Stander or Daniels (I forgot which one it was).

"Muhammad Ali had a big hand in the demise of the world heavyweight champion. Without taking, one iota of credit, away from Foreman's electrifying and sensational piece of work, Frazier was not the human howitzer who beat Ali on March, 8, 1971. It was generally agreed by those of us who saw that fight in New York that Frazier took a terrible head beating in slugging his way to a fifteen round decision. And from his sluggish showing Monday night, it was apparent he had never recovered."

""i just didn't realize i beat Joe Frazier that bad. I knew I defeated Joe Frazier but now the people see how bad I did beat him. When he fought two nobodys I knew he was done. Joe made a big mistake in his false illusion of being great. He didn't have no action, only eight rounds in two years." - Muhammad Ali


Even this article here — https://news.google.com/newspapers?...b9QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4V8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6176,2571228 — published right before the Foreman fight, literally asks “Frazier washed up?” and notes that his last two fights had led some to believe the champ was slipping.

Again, this is a completely different argument and has nothing to do with what I said.

 

I am well aware that Frazier received a huge beating in FOTC and that did lead to a decline. What i was saying that was after the Foreman fight, he looked really really good. You can make the case that 69 to FOTC was his absolute peak but the idea that someone only had a 3 year prime makes little sense.

You are using quotes right after the Foreman fight when people were perhaps scrambling to understand why Frazier lost in such a one sided way. Instead of realizing that Foreman was just a bad stylistic match up for Frazier, in my view they were overstating Frazier's decline. Regardless, he bounced back beautifully and i would regard his prime as 67-74 and his peak from 69-71. The Frazier of 1974 is still a great fighter.

 

I agree with dmt here. If we start calling an undefeated or 1 loss 30 year old past it because they struggled against a noticeable uptick in competition why have the fights? Foreman, Ali and Bugner were the 3 best opponents of Fraziers career. He looked better in the Foreman rematch and he looked better in the Ali trilogy. He looked better when he fought Ellis and Quarry again.

Ali also had a tendency to do much better in his 2nd fight with an opponent. With Patterson being the only exception. All the way up to Leon Spinks Ali did great in his rematches.

Those fights took a lot out of him and led to his retirement but I don't think he was declining in the ring so much as he couldn't handle those wars.

 

Imagine thinking 217 Foreman would beat Fury.

 

What a lazy argument. You're treating boxing like a ranked ladder, but your own examples proves you wrong. Foreman demolishes Frazier, Ali beats Foreman, but Frazier beat Ali. According to your who's ranked higher system, that's impossible. Your argument ignores that boxing is a real sport where styles, size, and game plans matter not some RPG where you just compare the 'All-Time Great' stat on two character sheets. Saying Fury automatically loses just because Frazier is ranked higher is the laziest kind of analysis there is and treats boxing like a math equation not an actual sport.

 

Joe Frazier was a top fighter from around the first Ellis fight through the first Ali fight. After that he was overweight, rumored to be a heavy drinker, and at times more interested in his band than boxing. In the ring JF made the effort, but his preparation was not the same. As they say, "The will to win is useless without the will to prepare." Especially for a small, pressure fighter like JF.

 

And yet 212 lb Wilder, who is inferior to Foreman, nearly ko'd him.

Fury would not even fight Foreman. Imagine thinking Fury would even sign the contract.

 

He knocked out Lyle and Young had one of the better chins defenses. He also was almost knocked out. China chinned AJ is done within 3. No skilled Wilder and Francis dropped Fury and almost knocked him out. Foreman would wreck him but ok

 

He would because it would be the easiest fight of his career. Def easier then Wilder, Wlad or Usyk probably on par with Chisora.

 

GF would be one of Fury's smallest opponents, one of his slowest, and probably the opponent with the least stamina. Chisora can fight forever at around 250 pounds and he keeps coming round after round. GF should be much easier.