Most impressive run: Hopkins, RJJ or Wlad?

Wow!!! RJJ fanboys, I forgot how rational and unbiased they were...

 

You can factor in whatever you want to as long as it's logical. Feel free. I'm only factoring them against Wlad, because this thread is specifically discussing how impressive these runs were. Everyone has different gifts and attributes. But Wlad like to hold and spoil a lot. Yes, Roy used his gifts to great effect. He used his advantages in speed along with great timing. Whereas Wlad used about 2 punches and then held. And although Roy had speed advantages, he sometimes gave up other attributes. But if you look at Wlad and Potvetkin, Wlad had huge advantages. He had advantages in height, reach, weight and power, and he was also very quick. Yet he gave a lacklustre performance. So again, that's not impressive to me. Neither was it impressive to see him look so shook against a guy like Sam Peter. Whereas Roy was dominating guys with ease, some of whom who had never been beaten like that either before or since. And that was in his 3rd weight class. So for me, that was more impressive.

 

Not to mention Hopkins kept making that weight into his 40s and usually didn't rehydrate more than 5-8 pounds.

His reach is also way overstated here. He has very short arms for his height which is why he has such a lunging, ambushing style.

You can't drain yourself to keep making a weight until you're 40 if you're too big for that weight class naturally. You would start seeing some major performance drawbacks before you even get to your mid 30s.
Hopkins was a MW at his peak. Period.



That being said, Roy still had the better run. He was Superman. Clearly a step above anyone else on the planet p4p for almost a decade. You couldn't even believe he was human, that's how impressive he looked

 

I have zero problems with you nominating Roy, just the multi faceted rationale you are using against Hopkins.

All good tho i have explained why and Bojak seems to be running the same debate with you and i will leave it to his most capable abilities.

 

I've just told you why he was only there for 2 years. In 1995, he couldn't fight Benn as he and his advisors wouldn't give King future options on him. Then the following year they went back to the negotiating table to try and fight Liles. And according to both HBO and Liles' manager, a fight was lined up, before Liles blew it by going back and asking for more. And he was offered his highest payday, which was 7 figures. So he couldn't get a crack at the other 2 titles, which is the same situation that Bernard found himself in. But instead of waiting around for things to change like what Bernard did for 6 years, he moved up for a fresh challenge. Otherwise he'd have racked up numerous SMW title defences where he'd have fought 3-4 times per year. If you take Benn, Liles and Calzaghe out of the equation, he'd have had a clear run for a very long time. He was fighting guys like Lucas after playing semi-pro basketball. He'd have replicated Bernard's reign with ease. But he showed ambition and moved up, which is a pattern all throughout his career. He moved up to SMW for Toney. He then took on the majority of the top 10 fighters at LHW. When the fight with Dariusz couldn't be made, he tried to fight Hopkins. When Hopkins swerved it, he then went up to HW and back. Whereas Bernard only moved up when he had nowhere to go and he'd got his MW record in the history books.

He did have a great contract with HBO, but the really big pay days didn't come until the 00's. The Nunn fight wouldn't have brought the payday that he got against some of his later opponents. The purses for the Griffin fights were also small in comparison to many of the others. Although, he rightly deserves criticism for how Nunn was treated. I didn't like it. He should either have taken the fight or immediately relinquished the belt. And I don't know what planet the WBC were on when they gave him back his belt the following year.

It's okay saying that he should have taken on the better guys, but you have to look at how viable the fights were. We know that guys like Liles, Calzaghe and Hopkins wouldn't fight him. The fights have to be there to be taken. If both guys want it and the promoters are reasonable, there's always a chance. But if both guys don't want it, it's practically impossible.

 

I like you as a poster. But instead of being sarcastic, why don't you come back and debate me?

All you've given me so far is nonsense such as that Bernard was only offered crumbs.

Since when is $6m crumbs to a guy who had the opportunity to avenge his only clear loss, when he was fighting mainly for $1m pay days?

Since when was him demanding $10m realistic?

You want to pretend that they just couldn't reach a compromise, yet that clearly wasn't the case.

 

Bokaj,

Roy got more exposure, but Bernard still fought regularly on a huge network. Nothing in life is certain. But let's not try and kid ourselves that that's why Bernard hung around. That's the same excuse that Calzaghe's fans come out with. Bernard wanted to remain at MW. He wanted the MW legacy. Because it was easy. It was much easier fighting those guys than the guys above. His tough guy Philly act has never washed with me. He showed his true colours when he swerved a 2002 fight with Roy, which was AFTER he'd cleaned out the division.

There was nothing stopping Bernard from being in the mix at the above weights. Again, he had a Showtime contract and he was a world class fighter. He could have made a dent in the division. He admitted in 2008 that he could have moved up years earlier had he have wanted to, but he didn't due to him not wanting to give up his advantages. And we know what he meant by that.

They were heavier due to day before weigh-ins. It doesn't mean that they were bigger. And again, lots of good fighters at LHW had moved up from the lower weights like Roy had. Marvin Hagler fighting Michael Spinks, wasn't in any way the same as what it would have been for Bernard fighting the LHW's of the 90's and 00's.

True. But they both ruled weak divisions whilst there were better opponents to target above.

It was just a keep busy fight. Most of his fights around that time gave him a guarantee of $3-4m.

For sure. And the fact that he had no intentions of ever taking the fight shows the true character of the man.

 

He made the weight limit fair and square. So he didn't do anything wrong. But do you know what he had to do to keep making the weight? Mackie Shilstone spoke of the amazing sacrifices that he made in order to remain at MW. He was truly amazed. I'll try and post you some quotes. He said he didn't know how it was physically possible for him to live the way he did. You can commend his dedication. Many people do. But not me. He just wanted to be the big fish in the small pond. He loved his reign. He loved the attention. But there was nothing great about what he did. It was just easier for him to dominate that weak division. He could never have cleaned out SMW or LHW in the same way, which is why he didn't move up earlier. His reach isn't overstated. He had height and reach advantages over many of his opponents, which is what he alluded to in 2008 when he stated he could have moved up years earlier but that he didn't want to give up his advantages.

 

Well we agree here .. And I feel the money was great for him in the 90's too … The bigger the draw, the more money was there for him to make. And Roy was the man, he was the draw and his team had the power to make any fight they wanted… Anyway I guess my main point is that RJJ was a very special talent, more so than Hop and Wlad and I use them because they are the thread topic .. I fell if RJJ fought the better guys after Toney, fighting to be the best, and won them all which he was very capable of doing, then we would be talking about him possibly in the top 10 all time p4p, no doubt the top 15 .. Because he didn't, and his resume is thin imo, we gravitate to what he did more later in his career. And because of this he rightfully sits outside the top 20 p4p.. I mean I know he is your guy and all but this part is not so hard to understand imo … And for the OP, I feel it is a very tough question to answer because a case can be made for all 3.

 

I'm enjoying reading your opinions. But if you follow his career trajectory, you can clearly see what type of a guy he is:


He'd fought numerous times above the MW limit before finally committing to the division.

When he committed to the division, most of the best fighters of the early 90's had either moved up or retired.

He was happy to wait around at MW for 6 years until King's tournament.

He had no intentions of fighting Roy in 2002, despite the fact that he'd cleared out the MW division, he had an opportunity at avenging his only clear loss, and it would have given a purse which was over 2 x bigger than the one he'd received against Tito.

He remained in the division for a further 4 years after the Tito fight.

He only moved out of the division after back to back losses against Taylor.

He said in 2008 that Roy was finished and he didn't want to fight him again. Yet he then fought him 2 years later for peanuts.

He also said in 2008 that he could have moved up to LHW 6 years earlier, but he didn't want to,as he didn't want to give up his advantages.


I have great respect for his longevity. But this guy was no legend to me.

The reason that he fought at MW for 12 years, was simply because it was much easier than fighting at the weights above.

He could never have cleaned out those divisions.

He went with the safer option instead where he could fight mostly naturally smaller men.

 

Again, the money wasn't great for the Nunn fight and he was looking for a mega money fight at the time, whilst high off of the back of the Griffin rematch win.

His team didn't have the power to make any fight that he wanted.

Despite being the consensus P4P, no.1 fighter in the world for a long time, he didn't generate huge numbers. And again, you can't make guys fight you if they don't want to fight. Liles and Bernard did not want to fight him in the early 00's. And neither did Calzaghe or Dariusz. (in the U.S.)

Yes, had he have fought and beaten them, he would obviously have greatly enhanced his resume.

 

At the end of the day they can fight where they want tho. Hopkins had no trouble making middleweight forever and a day. I believe he went up after it became too much making 160 anymore as evidenced by his effectiveness and diminishing energy and workrate. It was like he had a new lease of life. Tho i absolutely buy that Jones had slipped by the time Tarver iced him Hopkins skipped a division and went straight at the guy who pole axed Jones and beat him again in the rubber match. Not only that but he schooled him. Tarver had a big reputation at the time and Hopkins had no hesitation in matching him up.

So i don't buy into Hopkins hiding from these upper divisions as when he did go up he went up hard. Hell he fought Tarver then Wright then Calzaghe then Pavlik. Those four back to back is insane really in this day and age. Hopkins went balls to the wall at 160 for as long as he was physically effective there then went balls to the wall not one but two divisions up in an instant.

 

Hopkins wanted no part of Roy until he assesed that Roy had slipped enough as to were he could beat Roy.
Hopkins also never challenged Toney if you notice.
Also keep in mind that once Hopkins had the title he had something to negotiate with hence also why he remained there for awhile.
fact is Roy and Hopkins met when they were young and while they both werent in thier prime Roy won .
Nice bout but Roy won and it wasnt that close.