Most impressive run: Hopkins, RJJ or Wlad?

If you yourself notice Hopkins fought just once over 160 (in a nothing bout prior to winning the title) between 1992 and mid 2006. That's close to a decade and a half. Jones was schooling Toney at 168 and had already defended (and never dropped back to 160) before Hopkins had even won his title. Toney had left 160 a couple or years prior to Hopkins winning a title. Hell Toney's last ever fight at 168 was the whupping Jones put on his before Hopkins had won the title. He was 175 and above after that so lets get both feet back on the ground regarding any Hopkins ducking of Toney. The guy was two divisions up years before Hopkins made his mark at 160. Jones last fight at 168 was in 96. Hopkins truly became a superstar after beating Trinidad in 2001.

 

Hopkins was never a superstar .
hee actually got more attention the older he got-
People wanted to see how much he could defy fathertime.
When a fighter beats you fair and square and you want a rematch you find away to get it IF you truly believe you can win.
If im Roy you come to me- i already beat you.

 

Absolute nobody wasn't he.

 

JohnThomas1,

Of course fighters can fight where they want. But in a thread such as this one where we're specifically looking at how impressive his MW reign was, his circumstances have to be taken into account before we form an opinion.

Again, he made incredible sacrifices to dominate a weak division. That's a fact.

Again, in 2008, he admitted that he could have moved up years earlier, but he didn't want to because he didn't want to give up his advantages. That's also a fact.

Again, in 2002, he wouldn't fight Roy Jones at a C-W. That's also a fact.

So: What was so impressive about his MW reign?

He dominated a weak division where he fought mainly fighters who were naturally smaller than what he was.

Even after he'd unified the division, he still remained at MW for a further 4 years.

He had no ambition.

He only left the division after he'd got nowhere to go after 2 losses to Taylor.

Why don't you buy it?

It came straight from the horses mouth.

You can have a quote if you want.

He did hide from the above divisions.

He only went up when there was nowhere to go, and he had everything to gain and nothing to lose.

 

This is correct.

Bernard loved the notoriety his age brought him. He loved the attention. And we have to give him credit. His fitness and discipline were incredible. His longevity was incredible. Fighting Kovalev at almost 50 was great. But I watched this guy's whole career. And as brave as he was fighting Kovalev, he would not have fought him when he was younger.

There's too many people here giving him a free pass and ignoring his own comments and actions.

 

Again, he made incredible sacrifices to remain at MW for so long.

He couldn't have moved up and dominated the LHW division. That's the point I'm making.

He took the easy path. Okay, it was incredibly hard for him to live such a disciplined life in order to make the weight, but he was rewarded by facing lesser fighters who were naturally smaller than he was.

I don't know why you guys are ignoring his comments and giving him a pass.

He was very calculated.

Regarding Roy, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that he could have had double figure defences of his IBF, SMW title. He could have done it with his eyes closed. But when he couldn't get a crack at the other champs, he dropped the belt and moved up. Whereas Bernard was more than happy to defend his title and wait 6 years for a unification. And the reason he did that was because it was much easier than fighting the guys at the above weights, hence his comments in 2008.

The only thing that's impressive about his MW reign, is how he was able to make the weight for as long as he did.

 

We'll agree to disagree. Any fighter can go up anytime and almost all of them have advantages at their natural weight but you want to single Hopkins out. Hopkins made middleweight for 13yrs so lets not paint a picture that he wasn't extremely comfortable making that weight. If he wasn't he would have burnt out real fast and it would have ended ugly. Sure he started to get affected by the end but that is to be expected. Ali and Holmes both had to start coming in heavier later career because they could no longer perform as well at their previous best weights. Hopkins also became a victim of this but after an extremely long time.

 

Sure, most fighters can go up at anytime, within reason.

The reason Bernard gets signalled out, is because most fighters don't go to the lengths that Bernard did, in order to rule a weak division.

It's very simple:

He wanted an easy ride.

It sure wasn't easy to make weight, but again, he was rewarded by being able to rule the roost at MW. And it was much easier to fight those guys at MW, instead of targeting the better fighters at SMW and LHW.


Here's Mackie Shilstone's opinion on Bernard:

"I was amazed that Bernard literally, physiologically survived making MW"

http://www.boxingtalk.com/pag/article.php?aid=21645


Below are quotes taken from the Calzaghe presser in 2008, as well as a transcript between Bernard and Larry Merchant from around the same time:

'I'm glad that Joe feels comfortable fighting at his real weight that he could have been at a couple of years ago. I know the feeling Joe, I did it for 13 years at middleweight"


Larry Merchant: ''You suggested that you could've moved up in weight several years ago''

Bernard Hopkins: '' I could've fought 3 weight classes 4 or 5 years ago. About 5 or 6 years ago I could've moved up''

Larry Merchant: "Why didn't you?"

Bernard Hopkins: ''Well, there was more money down at the small weights and the risk was minimum to going up to fight the big boys''

Bernard Hopkins: "At the end of the day, if I can get a guy to a weight class where I know he's not used to or hasn't been in - why wouldn't I take that advantage or take that chance.''


Case closed as far as I'm concerned.


This guy was getting around $1m per fight, before he fought Tito in 2001, where he earned $2.5m.

After he beat Tito, he'd accomplished all he could at MW.

There was one fight that everybody wanted to see:

The rematch with Roy.

In 2002, Mark Taffet of HBO, met with Bernard along with Roy's advisor, Brad Jacobs. They met away from the cameras to try and make the fight. Roy agreed to drop weight, so they could have a C-W of either 168 or 169 pounds. Bernard was offered $6m. Yet he flatly refused and demanded $10m or no fight.

After his ridiculous demands couldn't be met, he then spent 13 months out of the ring, before fighting Morrade Hakkar for $1.3m. And then after the fight, he called out Shane and Oscar who were at JMW.

He then spent a further 2 years at the weight before losing to Taylor twice.


What else needs to be said?

The guy was a bully.

He went to extraordinary lengths in order to fight weak opposition.

Sure, he deserves huge props for who he fought in his 40's. But again, he wasn't willing to fight those types of opponents in his prime.

He wouldn't fight Roy for a huge payday, yet he was more than happy to drag 'Winky' up to 170 pounds.

What was impressive about that?

The guy was a fraud.

 

We'll agree to disagree.

 

Bokaj,

I'm tired of you writing nonsense.

Just read my last response to John Thomas.

It's all there.

How could Roy have fought Bernard?

Enlighten me.

Bernard demanded $10m or no fight.

This was a guy who's biggest purse back then had been $2.5m.

He didn't want to fight Roy.

Do you understand?

He deliberately priced himself out.

How on earth could he have been paid that much?

He swerved the fight.

He then called out for the JMW champs to move up and face him.

Yes, Roy didn't clear out any division he was in.

Why was that?

Tell me.

I don't need to impress you.

He couldn't easily make MW.

That's not true.

Again, read my last response to John Thomas.

No.

I'm penalising him for going to extraordinary lengths, in order to fight weaker opposition who were naturally smaller than him.

Do you understand?

He wouldn't fight the SMW's and LHW's of his era whilst he was at his best, but he was happy to fight 'Winky' at 170 pounds.

Regarding doping, I don't condone anybody doing that.

Okay.

That's your prerogative.

Now go and educate yourself on Bernard's career.

 

You're a great poster John.

Very passionate.

I enjoy debating you and reading your thoughts.


Regarding this topic, I don't know what you don't agree with.

I've given you quotes straight from the horses mouth.

 

I think you're being extremely hard on Hopkins. All good tho i enjoy your posts and you've gone to lengths to explain your stance. Merry xmas.

 

How so?

You've been given direct quotes of how he wanted to fight smaller guys who weren't used to fighting at the higher weights.

That's not my opinion.

That was him admitting it live to Larry Merchant.

There is nothing impressive about shrinking down in order to fight naturally smaller/weaker guys.

If you don't wish to debate the matter any further, that's cool.

I hope you and your family have had a great Christmas.