Most overrated aspects of a heavyweight?

Not 35 pounds of muscle. And Holmes was 42 years old.

 

I dont think any of these are overated by anyone. I think everyone is good on this list in each area

 

How does this suggest Marciano had more heart than the others? Marciano was out of the sport after 8 years. I guess his will to win died. Maybe he didn't have the heart any more. How about Holmes in the 90s? When he was in his 40s and he had been boxing for almost 20 years. Did he not show heart and will to win against Mercer? How about the last 3 rounds of his fight against Holyfield? He gave it his all and ended up puking when the bell sounded. He fought Oliver McCall at the age of 45. I'm sure it was his will to win that kept him going. How many great champions would fight the way Holmes did at the age of 45? Holmes dominated the division for over 7 years. He defended his title 20 times. Wtf is he doing fighting guys like Mercer, Holyfield, McCall when he should be enjoying his retirement. Marciano thought about coming back to fight Liston/Patterson etc. Holmes did come out of retirement and he fought a prime MIKE TYSON at the age of 38. He obviously came out of retirement again in the 90s. Holmes' will to win and determination might not be greater than other champions but it's no less either. His fight against Norton is one of the greatest title fights in heavyweight history. He got up from two devastating knockdowns against Shavers and Snipes. Won both fights. He showed heart whenever he needed to.

Ali didn't quit though, did he? "Ali was begging his corner to stop the fight against Frazier in Manilla, Frazier, on the other hand, was begging his corner to NOT stop it." Cmon now. Ali wasn't begging no one lol. He would've come out for the 15th if he had to. He was winning the fight after all. Joe needed a knockout. Ali fought a 25 year old, undefeated George Foreman. Ali was 32 himself. You think people doubted Marciano? Was Marciano every considered dead-meat going into a fight? Nope. Ali was, twice. He fought Liston and he beat Liston when no one else could. Did the same 10 years later against Foreman. Marciano's entire career lasted 8 years. Marciano was troubled by Charles/Walcott and he fought them twice. Ali fought Frazier and Norton 3 times each. 41 rounds against Frazier and 39 against Norton. Marciano went 36 rounds against Charles and Walcott combined. Ali fought prime Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers when he was past his prime. Both great punchers and both tested Ali's heart.

You brought up Ali wanting to quit against Frazier, how about his fight against Holmes? Did he quit when he was taking a beating of a lifetime? 1962, the first time Ali was floored. He was still taking his beating like a man against Holmes in 1980. That's a will to win that never dies. He was back again fighting Trevor Berbick 14 months later. Berbick was ranked #6 at the time. If Ali needed money, he could've fought in exhibitions, did appearances. If he had to fight, he could have fought the 50th ranked heavyweight and people would've still watched the fight. But he went for a top contender. Ali was trying to become the first world champion with Parkinson's disease. Ali's trilogies against Norton and Frazier were enough to end three careers. How come Frazier lost desire and determination after FOTC? He was fighting cans and showing up out of shape. Frazier had an 11 year career. Ali won the heavyweight title 18 months before Frazier turned pro. Ali fought in the Liston/Patterson era. Then he fought in the Frazier/Foreman era. He even fought in the Holmes era. He was a champion before Frazier/Foreman even turned pro. And he was champion for a few years after the two retired. I see unparalleled will to win and determination when I look at Ali's career. He can't be compared to anyone. Ali is in a league of his own.

 

I have noticed that with Rocky's staunchest supporters, they have no issue throwing other champions under the bus or questioning their stats/intangibles (power, technique, heart), but if you do the same to Rocky then you're obviously a hater.

Like these last 2 pages for instance. If you can question Ali and Holmes' heart and will to win, then all bets are off and nothing's sacred. You lost the right to be offended or upset at someone questioning anything about Rocky at that point.

It's rare on this forum, but only occasionally will his fans prop rocky up based on his own credentials without needing to drag down other fighters or questioning what seems obvious to so many people.

 

Prime for prime, I would definitely bet on those other two. Marciano was certainly was a hard puncher at 185lbs in the 1950's. I honestly do not believe that he couldn't with the 205+ figure l elites in the 1960's and so on years. People fantasize with Marciano matchups. I for sure would bet on Frazier.

 

When 180 pounders are regularly allowed to fight modern heavyweights, then we'll discuss a potential match up between the likes of Kilitschkos and Marcianos. Until then, such fights are meaningless and by default, non-credible.

If you are against this idea, then take it up against the commission that enforced the rules. Oh, and whilst you're at it, you should also consider making a case against having any weight division in the first place, unless you can justify with CONCLSUIVE proof and evidence that weight divisions are truly needed.

 

I dont need to accept anything.

Marciano and frazier get a pass for their short careers and their supposedly bodies breaking down faster. Ali and Holmes fought longer, more often, and against a wider variety of styles and often much younger men. They were in danger of losing and were actually the underdog more often than frazier and marciano. They got off the floor to win more often. In Ali's case he avenged some losses while frazier did not. Marciano was often the fresher younger guy and often favored to win and had at least some if not several advantages in power, chin, endurance, etc.

I can make plenty of arguments explaining why Ali and Holmes had just as much heart as any champion.

 

You see the common denominator there, right? Willard, Carnera, Valuev weren't particularly good fighters. Sharkey went 1-1 against Carnera. Wills was a great fighter. Langford went 2-6 against Wills. He also lost 7 newspaper decisions which I didn't include. Great big man beats a great little man (more often than not).

Dempsey beat a giant in Willard. Dempsey also beat smaller fighters like Levinsky, Carpentier, Gibbons. The difference is, the smaller fighters I named were actually great fighters but they couldn't beat Dempsey. Valuev lost a small fighter who was much better than him and much faster than him. Valuev also beat smaller fighters like Ruiz and Barrett. Carnera also beat small fighters like Sharkey, Loughran, Schaaf, Levinsky, Uzcudun. He beat Sharkey and Loughran who were much greater than him and much more skilled than him.

I'll give some examples of great big fighters beating great littler fighters:

Ali and Frazier beat Bob Foster
Jack Johnson beat Langford, Ketchel, and Burns
Bowe beat Holyfield 2/3 times
Jeffries beat Fitzsimmons, Corbett and Sharkey
Lewis beat Holyfield
Joe Louis beat Conn and Lewis
Sonny Liston beat Patterson
Max Schmeling beat Mickey Walker and Stribling
Harry Wills beat Kid Norfolk and Langford
Jack Sharkey beat Jack Delaney

It's not hard to find examples of big fighters beating little fighters and vice versa. I can find at least 10 in just Klitschko brothers resumes. Name a great little fighter that beat a great big fighter.

 

When did a puncher ever both James Toney? James had leagues better defense.