Most overrated old-timer?

Galento? What class might that be?

 

Dempsey had better handspeed than Frazier.

 

Different?

In truth Louis ( best ) class opponents were Schemling, Walcott, Charles, M. Baer, and Marciano. If you correctly give Walcott a win in their first match, Louis record vs these men is a shocking 3 wins and 4 losses.

I do not see much difference between the rest of Louis title defenses, and the guys Dempsey fought for the title.

Louis struggled quite a bit to beat the likes of Pastor, Godoy, and Conn. He was knocked down vs Braddock, B. Baer, Galento, and badly shaken vs Maurielo ( spelling ).

So you see Louis struggled too even with Jack Blackburn as his trainer, his own ref in Donavan, and some favorable judging, yet he’s often seen as a top 3 guy.

I think Dempsey's chin was a bit better than Louis. I also think Demspey's footwork, and defense made him much harder to find than Louis.

 

A bit of background here-

When Dempsey rose to title contentioon the picture would have been rather like this if there had been rankings.

Champion-Jess Willard
1-Harry Wills
2-Fred Fulton
3-Jack Dempsey

That is actualyquite a big heavyweight dominated division he is coming up through. Dempsey established himself as esentialy the No 3 contender by beating Bill Brenan himself a good 200lbs.

"Just one man, Fred Fulton, stands today between Jack Dempsey, the shiftiest two-fisted fighter since Bob Fitzsimmons, and Jess Willard, the heavyweight champion of the world. When Dempsey fights as he fought against Bill Brennan here last night, no lesser man can stand against him. Dempsey knocked Brennan out in the sixth round, and it was a masterly piece of work. Very few fighters have taken a better licking or taken their licking better than Brennan did last night. In sixty-seven fights Brennan had not been knocked off his feet, and his record includes about forty knockouts. Dempsey had him down four times in the second round and twice in the sixth. That ought to be answer enough to the question, can Dempsey hit? Just once did Brennan's robust wallop net Dempsey for a punch that stung. Dempsey took that punch and came back fighting like a tiger. Brennan's vaunted defense crumpled like paper before Dempsey's attack and his deadly left hand could not find its mark. Dempsey punished the big Chicagoan in every round but one." (Warren Evening Times)

When Dempsey fought Fred Fulton it was esentialy to establish who the biggest challenger to Willards crown was. It was seen at the time as a bout that could go either way.

 

You'de wind up broke.

 

That's great article, never saw it before.

 

Yes i believe he could.


Holmes has shown to be able to fight off the backfoot excellent, for instance against Shavers, Cooney and even Tyson when he was old. Now of course Shavers and Cooney hardly bring the pressure that Dempsey brings, but Holmes obviously adapted to the ability and speed of his opponent.

Carpentier, a washed up light heavy went 4 and shook Dempsey up in the process. Brennan went 12. Gibbons went the whole 15. Would it be such a stretch of imagination to see Holmes going 15 when he's easily superior to all of the former as well as bigger?

Sorry to say this, but you have to wake up from that "old timers would easily neutralise those clinches". When a big man ties you up in the right way, there's nothing you can do. Why do you think none of Wlad's opponents could neutralise it? They ALL knew he was going to do with. If there was some magical way to do it, then i'm sure it would've been found already or used by the vast knowledge of all trainers around.
When you're fighting lightheavies it might be possible, but with this big heavies it's a different story. Frazier, one of the best infighting heavyweight sof all time, couldn't do much about Ali's holding in their second fight (not saying that i liked it).

And it's not like that was the only reason. When at medium range, Holyfield more often than not blocked or ducked Tyson's punches while preparing a good counter, in fact he stopped him that way.

 

It didn't left him "theoretically" open, it left him open. End of it.

Tyson's head movement generally was also enough, but when it wasn't there were gloves to protect him. Not so in Dempsey's case. A good jabber, which there weren't many during his days with the exception of Tunney, would make him pay hard. Jabs are harder to avoid by just head movement because they come in such big numbers.

It's very simple. Dempsey left himself wide open and sometimes almost fell off balance. Tyson didn't. Dempsey has the balance issue here, not Tyson.

 

They were very mediocre. Willard looks horribly bad on film. No one here has seen Fulton, but the fact that he so big yet didn't accomplish that much doesn't speak well of his ability.

Some of them would stop him like Dempsey did (by outlanding at a too large margin), others might lose. Big deal; those rules weren't about who was the best boxer, more about who can still be standing after 40 rounds. Are you gonna tell me that Willard is a better boxer than Johnson because he beat him that way?

Willard and many others on film were also said to be exceptional technicians. Film shows how unreliable those reports are: they were ****, technically speaking.

 

Louis was 36 when he lost to Charles and 37 when he lost to Marciano. What evidence at all is there that Dempsey would have done better at that age.

Louis may have struggled the first time with Pastor, Godoy, and Conn, but he knocked out all of them decisively in returns, and Dempsey struggled with Miske the first two fights, struggled with Meehan, and also struggled with Brennan. All hype aside, Pastor was probably in the same class as Miske, and Conn was a ton better than Brennan.

Dempsey was knocked down by Tunney and Firpo, and the Firpo knockdowns were not flash knockdowns--Dempsey himself admitted Firpo badly hurt him--and was stunned by Brennan, Carpentier, and Sharkey. I see no reason to give Dempsey an edge in chin.

As for his "own ref" in Donovan, when did Donovan ever allow Louis to bend or bust the rules like Dempsey did against Firpo and Sharkey?

 

Yet still, after destroying Fulton, Dempsey was a 6-5 UNDERDOG to Willard. Apparantly they fought very little off either fighter, seeing as to how they make a horribly unskilled and old big lummox actually a favorite.