Most overrated old-timer?

That is an unfair comparison though. Who did Tyson fight that threw as many punches as anyone Dempsey fought, particularly Tuunney. You know as well as anyone else that old timers trained for stamina and speed. And not solely for strength like the modern super heavys tyson fought. Tyson can hardly slip and duck more punches than what was thrown? Put Tyson in the ring with a quicker smaller fighter and he slips plenty of punches it is just that other than Spinks (who wasnt really comparable in terms of workrate to the old timer fighters and who was kod too early to judge any way) and Tyson slips and ducks just as much Dempsey, if not more.

Dont criticise Tyson just because his prime opponents didnt throw as many punches as Dempsey's. It is like John L fans criticising Dempsey because he couldnt take a punch with out lbs of padding.

Unlike Dempsey, when Tyson took three years off from serious training and made a comeback by fighting all time greats like Douglas, Lewis and Holyfield (or even Williams or Mc Bride) he had an awesome ability to slip and duck, well maybe not, but he demonstrated a much more rock solid jaw (or at least that is what i am told often on this forum). Dempsey just folded when he was outlanded and classed by Tunney, no hang on, i think i got that the wrong way around. Tunney actually proved that he couldnt take Tyson's punch, because he was dropped by Dempsey and didnt get up and keep winning the round until the referee counted 9. That couldnt have happened in modern conditions, i mean except for Douglas Tyson, but we all know that Tyson was smart enough to at least protest that decision, Dempsey wasnt even smart enough to do that. That is living proof that if Dempsey loaded his gloves like he did against willard, Tyson would have definitely been smart enough to complain and go to court to stop Dempsey from winning the title. The ultimate skill required of a modern day fighter, whether on the street or in the ring?

 

I have adressed this is an earlier post, but i can't blame you for missing it: this thread is growing with the speed of light.


Anyway, what i said was: I would favor a great small heavyweight over a limited big heavyweight. Dempsey over Willard, Dempsey over Carnera (though i think Carnera is better than Willard), Dempsey over Buddy Baer, etc. But i wouldn't take Dempsey over Lewis or Bowe or Klitschko.

 

A. What actually are Louis' and Dempsey's chin records? Let's look at the championship fights.
Louis fought 27 championship fights. He was knocked down in 5 of them for a total of 6 knockdowns (Braddock, Galento, Buddy Baer, Walcott (2 in first, 1 in second, fights)--Louis was also stunned by Conn and Mauriello.
Dempsey fought 8 championship fights. He was knocked down in 2 of them for a total of 3 (or possibly 4-his glove touched the floor after a Firpo wild right in the midst of his 7 knockdown run) knockdowns (Tunney and Firpo). He was stunned against Brennan, Carpentier, and Tunney in the first fight.

Percentage of fights in which knocked down:
Louis----------19%
Dempsey------25%

Percentage of knockdowns suffered per championship fight:
Louis----------22% (6 in 27)
Dempsey------38% (if 3 in 8-if 4 in 8, 50%)

In championship fights, Dempsey was down more frequently and also stunned more frequently. There is no salient evidence for Dempsey being credited with the stronger chin.

 

Stanley Ketchel...maybe because he died early...he was good fought bigger guys, even kd jack J. but I cant agree with most respectable historians having him as the greatest middleweight ever

 

The bum of the month opponents skew the numbers here in Louis favor. I prefer to judge what I see land on film. It seems to me that Louis was staggered easier than Dempsey. Tommy Farr stunned Louis with a straight jab.

It is unfair to use the Tunney matches for knockdowns against Dempsey while omitting the Marciano fight where Louis was knocked down twice.

Another way to look at it Dempsey had 83 fights with one KO loss. Louis had two KO losses in 72 fights.

 

1. Donovan--Donovan was the ace referee for the NYSAC from the late twenties to WWII. You could make the same argument that he was the personal referee of Schmeling or Baer or Armstrong. He refereed most of Schmeling's big New York bouts--Risko, Uzcudun, Baer, Louis I, Thomas, Louis II--Baer's fights with Schmeling, Carnera, Louis, Farr, and Nova--and Armstrong's New York championship fights. You are assuming that the NYSAC allowed the promoter to dictate the referee, but prove it. Most of Louis' championship fights were refereed by other men.
On the scoring-Donovan gave Louis 10 rounds against Godoy. So did one judge. So did the New York Times. Most of the press saw Louis winning. The second judge gave Louis only 2 rounds. I think he is the one who should be investigated.
As for the Farr fight, both judges and most of the press had Louis winning. This is your only good point, as a 13-1-1 vote for Louis seems one-sided off the film.
You make much of Walcott vetoing Donovan. Why didn't other fighters if he was clearly biased. Do you have any evidence that anyone else even complained.

2. Dempsey-Charles--Dempsey had no official fights after 32. How could anyone draw the conclusion from that that he could KO Charles at 36 even if Louis couldn't. This is not a credible position.

3. "I think Miske was better than Pastor. Most would agree."
Have you done a survey? How do you know what most think? And even if they do, there is no basis for such a judgement. Here are the records from Boxrec of these two men

Pastor---------53-7-5 (17 KO's) 65 bouts-stopped by Louis and Conn
percentage of bouts won--82% percentage of bouts lost--11%
best names beaten--Jimmy Bivins, Gus Lesnevich, Turkey Thompson, Johnny Flynn, Booker Beckwith, Buddy Scott, Roscoe Toles, Lee Ramage, Al Ettore, Ray Impellitierre
draws--Maxie Rosenbloom, Lou Nova, Tami Mauriello

Miske----------73-16-13 (33 KO's) 104 bouts-stopped by Dempsey
percent of bouts won--71% percentage of bouts lost--15%
best names beaten--Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Charley Weinert, Gunboat Smith, Fireman Jim Flynn, Tom Cowler, Fred Fulton, Jack Renault, Bob Roper, Carl Morris, Bill Brennan
*also defeated Tommy Gibbons on a foul in fight he was losing
draws--Harry Greb, Willie Meehan

There are on the same plane. Pastor won at a slightly higher rate, but Miske, in my judgement, defeated slightly better opposition. Miske has a slight edge in power and perhaps in chin, but appears to be somewhat easier to outbox. If there had been no Dempsey, Miske might have been champion. If there had been no Louis, Pastor might have been champion. However, Miske was not as good as Gibbons and Pastor was not as good as Conn.
All in all, I see them as dead even and without film, I don't know how anyone could really come down on either one of them as obviously better.

4. "Brennan had a puncher's chance that Conn and Pastor did not."
Actually, Conn stopped top men like Pastor, Barlund, and Dorazio. Who was the best man Brennan knocked out? Brennan was not that proven a puncher. And clearly Conn and Pastor were much better all-around fighters.

 

I'm damn sure they would. What a joke, Larry Holmes said to have no chance against anyone, let alone a 190 pounder. For all you know Holmes could stand his ground and still win. Yeah i know, i know, "i guarantee you this would have spelled doom for Holmes".

I would have Frazier sweating hard and ready to start a bit quicker than normal. Holyfield is a fine boxer puncher and similar tactics to the Tyson fight would be just fine.

I'd be in no panic whatsoever.

 

Why did other fighters not make a case agaisnt Donovan? I'll venture a guess. Most fighters were just happy to get a title shot, and by vetoing Donnavan, Louis could have picked someone else.

Louis had a special realtionship with the promtoers in New York, and managers with deep pockets. This is why Braddock picked him. It was about the money. Anyone who owns Louis vs Godoy 1 knows there is no way Louis won 10 rounds. Godoy worked eaisly handled Louis in the clinches, bulled him to the ropes several times, and landed body shots at will. He also ducked many of Louis punches. Louis had trouble landing and hardly landed in some rounds.

Demspey power stayed with him after he retired, and he won at least 30 fights via Ko, though they were exhibitions. As an older Fighter Demspey KO'd Galeto with one punch in the gym.

Miske was faster, hit harder, was more durable, and beat better fighters. This is why I think he was better.

I still think Brennan was a better pucnher than Conn and Pastor. Skill is not the question here, power is. Perhaps Brennan is a bit over rated as a puncher.

 

Fight

 

Smart thinking might find Tyson's opponents at this time, Bonecrusher included, were simply so intimidated they threw substancially less punches than their norm in fear of opening themselves up.

More analysis would conclude a 175 pounder, a light heavyweight, should be firing more punches than a guy some 235. Remember, you are talking much smaller men.

 

On film, Dempsey is not staggered by Willard and Gibbons. He is knocked down by Firpo and Tunney, and staggered by Brennan, Carpentier, and Sharkey. Five of seven fighters either drop him or stagger him. He is dropped in two fights and staggered in four of his eight filmed bouts. I just don't see how you come up with the idea that Louis is easier to drop or stagger. There simply is no evidence.

Louis was a top man from 20 to 37. Dempsey from 23 to 32. I don't think the fight with Marciano is relevant to judging their respective chins. I don't think a 37 year old Dempsey would have survived Marciano's best shots either.

 

Do you actually have not only proof, but even an iota of evidence that Louis' camp could or did pressure the NYSAC to use Donovan as a referee. Donovan was the top New York referee and worked most of the top bouts, backed by Billy Cavanaugh and Eddie Joseph. He had been the top referee since the late twenties. Donovan also worked a majority of major bouts which did not include Louis. This is a really nasty argument which, if it is not given documentary support, takes you over a rather unpleasant line.

How do you judge Miske faster, or more skilled for that matter, than Pastor, without film?

Well, as for Dempsey's power in the thirties, it was not outstanding enough to even allow him to launch a serious comeback even though he was very short of funds--the outstanding heavies at the time being Sharkey and Carnera. He opted instead to make money as a wrestling referee. This is the fact of the matter. Gym rumours about knocking out Galento don't count for much against it.
I have the fight with Cowboy Luttrell. Luttrell is not even unskilled. He is not a boxer at all. Luttrell was a professional wrestler. Dempsey does eventually knock him out, but Luttrell taunts him first with his chin out and then eats punch after punch before being banged out of the ring. The Dempsey of the 1920's would have flattened Luttrell in less than 20 seconds.

Conn stopped better heavyweights than Brennan. You gave no real rebuttal.

 

Gibbions did stagger Dempsey with a right hand, forgot what round, but the film points it out. think its round 4 or 5. But its shortly before Dempsey foul Gibbions on the ropes.

 

James Toney ?