Most overrated old-timer?

I just wanted to post in this topic. It has grown very quickly and I just wanted my name associated with it.


and an overrated old timer that comes to mind is Jess Willard. People need to stop kissing his ass. I am sick of reading all the lovesick posts on this forum concerning Willard.

 

.i agree with an earlier poster in saying i do not want to make a louis vs dempsey entry (jack kearns would not have wanted to make a prime matchup between them either)..where was I oh yes....the second greatest heavyweight ever was joe louis in his first match against a challenger....the GREATEST heavyweight ever was Joe Louis in a rematch.

 

:rofl :rofl :rofl

 

So what makes Bowe or Klitschko better than Carnera, Buddy Baer or even Willard?

 

Skill and far better use of athletic ability per size.

 

You are going to have to be more specific here.

I mean a central plank of your thesis is that every big man past a certain date was a magnitude better than every big man before that date. Therfore the big men that Dempsey, Sharkey, Louis etc beat dont count.

Fine if you can justify it but otherwise it is a serious weakness in your argument.

 

If you haven't already take a look at the films. There's a few around. Many top big men now have the co-ordination of much smaller men from distant era's. They also aren't afraid to establish a busy jab. At times jabbing seemed almost illegal back in the former era's. A Bowe was both huge and immensely talents. His ability on the inside for such a big man was extraordinary. He's not top 10 but he would be hell for a lot of fighters pre 60's. Carnera was decribed as terribly unco-ordinated by many back in his own era let alone now.

 

They have better footwork, they are faster, more powerful, have a better ability to get their punches in, better jab, better fundamentals (keeping the hands up high), they know how to use their size advantage by tieing the opponent up close if the stylistic matchup requires this. Basically they do everything better. They have an extended and accomplished amature career.

Watch Wlad take out Austin (who was his own size) with a triple hook that sounded like a shotgun blast. Watch him stay off the ropes and out of Peter's range for 12 rounds while busting him up. Watch him not drop a single round against Byrd, a master boxer, who by the way is about as big as the vast majority of Willard/Carnera/Baer's opponents. Watch him hook off the jab like no other heavyweight his size has ever done with the exception of Lennox Lewis. See how he ties them up when they get in range to do their work. Don't kid yourself, no 190lbs fighter is gonna stop him from doing that. Watch Bowe's well-timed uppercuts on Holyfield. Yes, Bowe lacks in defense, but he's still lightyears ahead of Willard who seems to be boxing for the first time on every film that i see of him. Which can be understood if you know that he started boxing in his 30's and that he was 1 in 10000 with his size: can't expect much talent there.

Now i think Carnera is a big step up compared to Willard. Carnera was a solid boxer with a good jab. But he lacked power and doesn't come close to having the athletic talent, i.e. he does not nealy have their handspeed, coordination and you will never see him hooking off the jab.

 

I agree with JT.

 

I showed you Donnavan's score cards ( which you agree are bad in the Farr fight ) and proof that Walcott would not fight Louis unless Donnavan was removed. Was this not some support?

A ref who is also a judge can influence a fight in more ways then one. Louis camp picked the ref and the venue in almost all cases when he was champion. Donnavan was their man for 15 or so title fights. IMO, this is too cozy of a relationship / business partnership.

By those who said so, and saw Miske.

Dempsey’s KO over Galento in the gym is no rumor. Dempsey kept his explosive power with him when he retired. I forget how many exhibition matches he had, but if he Ko'd 50 men post retirement, would that be enough to illustrate my point that Dempsey kept his power with him? If not Dempsey was the lone man to floor Tunney, and did so with a hellacious combination. Charles was floored by lesser punchers than Dempsey, and I do believe the Dempsey who fought Tunney could have KO’d the Charles who fought Louis.

Maybe I didn't make clear enough. My point was Brennan hit harder.
Remember Conn was a middle weight and light heavy weight for many fights! Might that has inflated his KO%? Conn had grand total of 15 Ko's in 77 fights! He was not puncher at all, OLD FOGEY. Perhaps Conn might have had an attrition related KO vs another ranked heavyweight when he landed many more blows, but the crux of the question was Brennan had the punchers chance because he hit harder. Brennan also had more career Ko's by a mile, and fought much bigger and stronger men in general. I hope this is enough of a rebuttal. Dempsey was never stunned by a man with this low of a KO percentage on film. Louis was.

 

1. Donovan--this referee worked most of the big fights in New York from the late 1920's to the mid-1940's. Like I said, one could make as good of a case that he was hand in glove with Schmeling, Ross, Armstrong, or Baer, as with Louis. He worked 12 of Louis' championship fights and was generally considered the best referee of his era. Walcott did protest him, but Joe Jacobs, Galento's manager, specifically requested Donovan as the referee for his fight with Louis in 1939. Baer raised a holy stink against Donovan refereeing his 1935 bout with Braddock, although Donovan was the referee for his bouts with Schmeling, Carnera, Louis, Farr, and Nova.
You provide no evidence for your conspiracy theory other than Donovan's card in the Farr fight, a fight which almost everyone thought Louis won.
Louis by the way had no say in the venues. Mike Jacobs had exclusive contracts with Yankee Stadium and the Polo Grounds and in fact control of the venues actually allowed him to eventually control the heavyweight champion. New York was the big time and the big money.
No rival promoter could stage a big fight in New York because of Jacobs' exclusive rights to the two big ballparks. Nor have you provided an iota of evidence that Louis, rather than the NYSAC, chose the referees.

2. In sixty years of reading about boxing, I have never read of anyone trying to compare Pastor and Miske for speed or skill. Could you give a few names? and a citation?

3. Dempsey--I have the list of Dempsey's exhibitions starting in 1931-Here are some of the names---Jack Beasley, Dave McRae, Denny Lenhart, Bob Mariels, Bob Frazier, Red Tingley, Big Tom Sawyer, Tiny Lamar, Del Wolfe, Elgin Taylor, Dee Richmond, Tom Moore, Wayne Pitts, Sailor Smith, Del Baxter, Battling Lamoreaux, Pete Wistort, George Neron, Happy Shade, Angus Snyder--I could go on, but I think you see my point. These are not exactly the big names of the period. Dempsey opted not to make an official comback, despite the big money and the chance of winning a larger place in history. This tells us all we need to know. He was no longer a top fighter. Talk of what he could have done at 36 with Charles is nonsense, and the Galento rumour does not outweigh these facts.

4. Conn was a maturing fighter and as fighters get older they sometimes pick up a punch. The fact is Conn ko'd Pastor, Barlund, Dorazio, and Knox, and I would rate all of them above anyone Brennan ko'd. I don't care if Conn did it with combinations rather than one punch at a time. He did it. Repeating that you think Brennan punched harder is no rebuttal.

 

I'll just focus on the last mentioned, Willard and say hes better than Klitchko (Vitali at least). It seems to be right that Willard is faster, has more heart, more stamina, and the better wins. Vitali may have slightly better technique. Power and Chin are about even.

 

Farr only won 1 round of 15 on Donnavan's card, and Donnavan somehow had Louis up 10-4 vs Godoy. There's you’re proof. Do you think these are honest cards, OLD FOGEY? A reply here would be nice. Let’s go on what we both know here. Defend Donnavan’s judging for Louis if you will. I believe Donnavan was partial towards Louis, and was connected to Louis promoters.

It’s more how the fighters are described in papers than names.

My point was Dempsey kept his power in his mid 30's, and Charles fought toe to toe with Louis. Since Charles was certifiebly chinny, standing toe to toe with Dempsey in his mid 30's could have lead to him being knocked out. Poster John Garfield will confirm that Dempsey KO'd Galento in sparring.

Conn had a very low KO percentage, and some of that was from middle and light heavy fights. Without a doubt Brennan hit harder and had more of a puncher’s chance.

Conn Ko'd Knox, who was Ko'd 14 times, past his best and on a losing streak.

Conn Ko'd Barlund, who was Ko'd 10 times, and lost 3 of his last five. Clearly on a slide.

Conn Ko'd Dorazio, who was Ko'd 8 times, and was 2-3-1 in his last six matchs.

Notice a pattern here? It seems Conn Ko'd guys who were known to be KO losers, and caught them in a slump.

Brennan had more KO in total and much higher Ko, and no fights with middle weights. Brennan hit harder. That was my point.

In closing:

1. Donnvan was partial towards Louis as a judge, and cozy with his promoters. You may muddy the waters with the promtoers, but not the juding.

2. Demspey had plenty of KO's in exhibtion matches, did KO Galeto in sparring, and kept his power with him late. Demspey could have KO'd Chalres in his mid 30's. Key word being could have.

3. Brennan hit harder than Conn. I'm takling power here, not skills or a TKO by attrition.

 

A guy over 6'3 years ago was always considered too big to be good, in the 70's 6"3 was still big but when a guy came in at 6"5 you began to wonder anything over 6"5 was the bigger they are the harder they fall. Today the big men like the Klitschko's,McCline,Valuev,Lennox are better skilled than the Big guys of the past but McCall and Rahman where maby 6"2 tops and they beat the best Big man Lewis, Byrd 6 ft, beat Vitali,McCline, and others and Brewster ^" beat Vlad so even though the Big men today are better skilled, there losses were to smaller men.

 

Klitchko is much better then Carnera Baer or Willard .

Bowe most probably also is though his inability to handle a jab and complete lack of defense hurt him in the skills departement