Most overrated old-timer?

I'd go with Jack Johnson

 

Eye witness accounts vary based on personal preference on style or fighters.

Eye witness accounts without tangible evidence like film to back it up is always dubious.

Lets take for example Leonard vs Hagler without Film we have to rely on the eye witness accounts of the people who saw that fight.


Many because they like Hagler more till this day still feel That Hagler really won that fight and vice versa many believe that Leonard rightly won that fight.

Without film the only thing we can rely on is biased personal accounts.

 

Damn, Old Fogey, well produced arguement.

 

Demsey: end of thread. It says something when Tex Rickard says he wasn't a patch on Jeffries or Fitz. He doesn't get enough criticism either for the way Kearns 'D'amato-esqued' his manoevers while champ.

 

That Nat Fleischer is a frustrated old ****** with no credibility as a boxing historian when it comes to comparing fighters from eras different than his youth idols.

What is the point in arguing something you don't even believe? You're really reaching for straws here. You can argue that Fitzsimmons was better than Marciano all you want, but don't be suprised when you lose all your credibility in doing so.

That is another one of those dramatic myths way over exagarrated. On each fight, there are thousands of people say "this fighter is prone to the left hook" , "pressure him and you'll beat him", "he drops his hands", etc etc.
When a big name says that, people will say "wow, i can't believe he figured that out, he must have been able to do that himself as well. WRONG. Seeing something and making it work are two completely different things. And you won't hear about the 1000 times that he made a wrong pick.

Same **** with Atlas being so famous for having correctly expected that Tyson would be disqualified. Big deal. You won't hear about all the ridiculously wrong calls he made, Grant knocking Lewis out etc.

In the end, the jab is a great tool to win. Even a crude slugger like Foreman said "Boxing is an easy game if you have a great jab.". I think it's admirable that you're defending you old time idols here, but the fact that Johnson didn't jab or was being jabbed at is a weakness, not a strength.

Why don't you go make a ton of money and train fighters to use that magical trick because everyone these days jabs.

Johnson holds his hands low very often and doesn't use his gloves to block punches often. He intercepts and wrestles, you won't see him blocking the left hook with his right glove. And i'm not saying that because the left hook was only invented for 10 years at that point.

Really? Then why didn't he start making money from this hobby of his? Why couldn't he beat them when it mattered?

I have seen footage of a fat 51 year old Johnson and he looked ridiculous, despite the better film speed. He had his arms stretched out all the time and flopped them. A straight puncher would get through that and knock him out.

 

14 wins of which 12 were nobodies. Big deal. Tom Heeney was that 5'8 fat heavyweight, right?

Do you find it a coincidence that despite 100 years of great fighters, never since has a 168'er been THE man? A guy like RJJ has sick speed and ability, he used all the methods to climb up in weight (steroids) yet still no one gave him a chance vs Lewis, except for the ******ed Lewis haters like Ron Borges. Guys like Hagler and Monzon were great but even against decent heavyweights, they would be 50/50.
It was the heavyweight division that was ****, not Fitzsimmons that was a miracle man (Not saying that he was a bad fighter, by the way).

Most accounts don't say so though. And no fighter takes punishment deliberately.

 

Take every controversial fight from the last say 20 years And hudge them not of film that you yourself have seen but on eyewitness accounts only and you will see the folly on relying on eye witness accounts from a 100 years ago.

Based on eye witness accounts alone Mike Tyson is either

1 A GOD who came down from mount Olympus to easily destroy mere mortal men and who ruled the HWS in his short prime as an Achilles reborn.

2 A mere Bully who seemingly went 37 fights without being hit and when he fought the first man who was not afraid of him immediatelly curled up into the fetal position.

you will see one of these opinions voiced at least once a week on a boxing messageboard by a Tyson lover or a Tyson hater

luckily we have film on Tyson so that we can form our own opinions.

TYson would be a nightmare to judge based only on eye witness accounts

 

By the time it started to look more or less modern (I'd guess 1920-1930's), almost nobody who saw Mace's fights was alive anymore, to make the above claim. I highly doubt Mace created something that wasn't used before his days.

 

Tell me all about Charles and his brilliant career. He never even won the light-heavyweight title, and he briefly held the heavyweight title, for around 2 years. He beat guys like Bivins, Moore, Wallcott, Marshall. Listen, I'm not saying he was overrated, he was a damn fine fighter. I think its you who needs to find a bowling forum.

 

I tend to think that Dempsey is UNDERRATED, if anything. Just think of how he would have benefitted by being privy to today's training methods, in addition to the toil of the traditional methods he was familiar with, and with a busier schedule when champion, he would have been even sharper. Dempsey had that resourcr of being able to end a fight on a dime with those trigger reflexes and that explosive power of his, but most of all, he may have, had he been around today, of being a cruiserweight champion par excellance, as an alternative to being in a division with all these "superheavies" over 230 lbs. I find his ko of Jack Sharkey, and his sudden, turning of the tables against Gene Tunney in the "Long Count", that sequence of deadly punches, like a rattlesnake, both fights when he was over the hill and on his last legs, to be very impressive to me.

 

robbi...one cannot win a title when the champions managers consistently turn down huge guarantees from the challengers management.
Have a nice holiday season eating your haggis or whatever they call that stuff.
ALas, I wouldn't feel qualified to be on a bowling forum as I have not observed that activity for over 60 years.

Re:Those who said Jimmy Bivins. I said the statement about him being overrated doesn't even merit discussion, so I won't make one. However, read old Fogey here and another thread for your education.

 

I can asure you all that the chances of any fighter pre 1930 being over rated by the average person o0n this forum are virtualy zero.