Most Technically Perfect Boxers

It might be wise of you to study tapes of Carlos Ortiz, Vilomar Fernandez, Ezzard Charles, Verno Phillips, Carlos Santos, Happy Lora, Wilfredo Vasquez, Archie Moore, and others who used the step-back hook counter, without standing straight up in the air, to great effect.

And the reason the good trainers tell you to stay low is simple... because most people instinctively aim for where they imagine the head should be... just like Tarver did when he found Roy's accomodating jaw waiting for his hopeful left.

 

If you read what I said before, Hamed didn't have classic skills, and so despite his speed and unorthodox things, he received a lesson from not very fast Barrera. Same as young Clay/Ali received several lessons, despite being quicker than his opponents. Nunn was a classic boxer, same as Spinks. Byrd doesn't show unorthodox moves.

Again you are not paying attention to what I said. I said, there were plenty of quick unorthodox guys in the history of boxing, but none of them showed as good a run as did Jones. Because he has been combining thorough knowledge of all the things from the book with athletism and unorthodox things.

There were guys who had if not as quick hands as he, but close, and were quick on their feet too. None have showed the kind of dominance Jones has. None. Because behind that dazzling speed and flashy moves, there're plenty of classic moves and tricks, including those lost forgotten and abandoned, but which you can see fighters from 1st half of 20th century do a lot, and do them effectively, despite what modern books teach that these things are erroneous.

If SRR wasn't so fast of hand and foot, he would have never achieved what he did. If Willie Pep wasn't so fast, ditto. Whitaker. SRL. Benny Leonard. And so on and so on.

You are missing the point. If you watched Jones in his prime, you would see a similar set of classic moves he uses now more often. Watch him vs Merqui Sosa, then watch him vs Hansho, how he works from the ropes. The moves are the same, just there he threw a bit more counters and moves his upper body a little more, but other than that he's doing the same things last week that he did 11.5 years ago. And that he did back in the amateurs as well, if you read Iceman Skully's articles, he remembers Roy liked staying on the ropes back then already, rolling with punches and throwing sharp short counters. He knew everything he shows now back then already, it was only a matter of how much he uses these things.

Because he's not stupid and knows his body is no longer the same, and he is adjusting to it accordingly. But not by trying to learn something he "supposedly never had" (classic technique), but by going back and recalling the things he knew from long ago. The things his father drilled him in the amateurs, making him stay in the gym 8-10 hours every day for many years.

You are brilliant in not even paying attention to what I'm saying.

 

Which fight and round? Orthodox vs southpaw, standing face first throwing a right hook, then stepping back with right foot at the same time turning the body counter-clockwise and ducking low and throwing a left hook at the same time? I have plenty of fights, so I might be able to locate one of those you name. And if I see anyone doing such move, I'll put a "I got an ass-whupping for my ignorance of knowledge about boxing" signature for a month.

You are ripping it out of context. It's common knowledge what you just said, but doing it in combination with three other things you claimed, which is not only lacking from any book, but is basically impossible to be done, as anyone with even little knowledge of body mechanics will tell.

 

Here's something you wrote in response to an earlier poster when he tried to point out Jones' mistakes when he got nailed by Tarver's punch...

So, in your book, it's perfectly OK to back up in a straight line, perfectly OK to lean back to avoid a punch, OK to stand straight up as you counter, OK to keep one hand dangling by your side if there is no perceived danger???

I'm sorry but I was taught by my trainer to NOT back out in a straight line, to NOT lean back to avoid a punch, to NEVER stand straight up while defending, attacking or countering, and keep both hands up at all times.

It was always, "step out to the side... don't pull back... get under the punch and keep moving your head side to side... keep them damn knees bent... and stop dropping them goddamn hands..."

In fact, he used to tell us that sooner or later, Jones was gonna get his "dick knocked into his watch pocket... you wait and see..."

BTW... with a bit of practice, it's quite easy to learn to turn the hips counter-clockwise into a hook position while stepping back with the right foot and bending the knees a bit to get under a punch.

Rodrigo Valdez also comes to mind...

And, if you wanna see classic rolling along the ropes, watch SRR against Gene Fullmer in their last fight where he gets ROCKED. And the reason Robinson got hit more than Jones is because he was concentrating on OFFENSE, trying to take the other guys head off rather than trying to put on a fancy move to impress himself.

 

Mistakes, who's existence is contradicted by video replays.

Where did he back up at all in that situation?
Where did he lean back to avoid a punch, which punch would that be at all? Jones parried Tarver's jab and put up right guard against left counter to the head.
At mid-to-close-range, it's ok to stand straight up when you counter, if you put up a guard against your opponent's counter.
Yes, it is ok to keep one hand low (waist-height) if there's no danger of getting hit from this side. When there was danger (Tarver threw a right jab), Jones' left hand was up to parry it, after that Tarver was in no position to throw a consequent right while his right arm was stretched out in front of Jones' chest.

If your trainer said that about Tarver-II, then he doesn't have a clue of what he's talking about. Glen Johnson fight - he is correct.

Doing these things all at the same time is basically impossible. You can do maybe 2 or 3 things out of 4 at the same time, such as stepping back and bending low and possibly throwing a left hook, but you can't add a counter-clockwise turning to this set.

I wanted to see anyone doing four above moves all at the same time. Not one after another, consequently, but all four at the same time!

If you watched Robinson backed up to the ropes, you often see him battered like a rag doll, not having a clue how to block, duck, slip and roll with punches properly, he just stands there and takes a beating for several seconds, before he figures out he needs to do something about it.

 

Just watched the replay of the KD of Hansho (I only watched the fight live, and didn't watch it again yet), timing (with VirtualDubMod software) how much time it took him to throw that combination. Right hook, left hook, left uppercut, took him about 0.50-0.56 seconds to throw it. How many fighters in their prime could throw such combo as quickly as 38 years old Jones did?

 

NOBODY has ever questioned the man's speed... you silly nuthugger...

And that just about sums up all your comments... but I must admit, the detailed analysis is not bad... for an armchair boxing fan...

 

I studied Roy Jones Jr fights more time than pretty much any other user here, I think.

The comment about speed was intended to see if anybody could recall fighters who threw three and more punches combinations as quickly as Jones, and I don't mean flurries (what Meldrick Taylor, Sugar Ray Leonard or Muhammad Ali liked to do).

 

I think you've studied them more than every user in here added together, and we can prolly add Roy, his dad and any other 4 or 5 to the mix as well

 

Can you imagine, after all the time and effort Senya13 put into studying the RJJ "technique" (while losing his wife, missing his kids growing up, getting fired from work, etc...), only to find out that most RJJ "skills" don't work with regular boxers and that Roy only got away with it because of his tremendous speed, reflexes, and athleticism.

If he keeps thinking that what RJJ does is alright, then I don't know what to say... I just pray he isn't training any fighters.

 

Yeah, he does get a wee bit obsessive that's for sure.

 

And some people continue to arrogate to me things I never said.

 

...You have replaced quality with quantity.

I sincerely doubt that those ~1,450 hours you have spent watching tapes helped your capability to analyze him. You evidently watched one hour of Roy, probably against Vinnie Paz, and lost your objectivity forever. In effect, you have watched 1 hour of Roy Jones -1450 times.

That is about has commendable as reading "Jane Eyre" over and over and over and then claiming to have thus earned a Ph.D in English Lit.

 

i get your point on his all round techniques but he is a jab cross fighter his left hook is dangerous to him becuase it's rather slow (not really slow it just takes to long to get to the point of impact)

but in time im sure he will be technically perfect

 

Techincally perfect. I've posted twice in the last few days about it. Its simple and easy to understand.

Any lovers of great fighters from the 30's and 40's. Sit up up and take notice, as well as anyone who struggles with the term "technically perfect".


BERNARD HOPKINS IN TRAINING



Bernard Hopkins walks out into the crowded floor to go through his preparations for this Saturday’s showdown with Winky Wright.

I dropped by the Wild Card around noon this past Monday to observe the 42-year-old ring general’s final day in the crowded Hollywood gym and found that I wasn’t the only curious onlooker. Fellow boxing writers Steve Springer of the L.A. Times, David Avila of the Riverside Press-Enterprise (and thesweetscience.com), and Paul Hernandez who puts out the ‘Punch’ boxing newspaper were there, as were three of the best people I’ve met through boxing, super fans Dave Schwartz and JP Husky and trainer Don Familton.

Once Hopkins climbed into the ring, all eyes were on him.

“It was beyond observing,” admitted Schwartz, a fight fan since the ‘50s. “We were mesmerized. No one blinked once Bernard started shadowboxing. It was bordering on ‘man-love’; it was almost embarrassing.”

No need to be embarrassed. Hopkins’s rags-to-riches story, ring accomplishments and old-school skills make him ‘man-crush’ worthy for many diehard fans around the world.

As I watched Hopkins jab and feint while gliding to one side of the ring and then back, I thought about gym stories from ‘long-timers’ like Schwartz and Familton, two guys who have been following the Sweet Science since before my dad was born.

Whenever they brought up watching some of the all-time greats train at long-gone boxing clubs like the old Main Street Gym at 318 S. Main St. they never talked about heated sparring sessions. They marveled at Alexis Arguello’s surgical precision in working the speed bag, or the ferocity of Roberto Duran skipping rope, or the seamless fluidity of Ismael Laguna shadow boxing.

I think it was Familton, now 77 years young, who told me about watching Laguna at the Main Street Gym.

Familton’s father, who saw Benny Leonard fight, was an avid boxing fan and took his son to the fights as soon as he was old enough to know what he was looking at. Familton, who saw Sugar Ray Robinson fight, used to hang out at the Foxhole Gym in Cleveland, Ohio where former light heavyweight/heavyweight contender Jimmy Bivins and former middleweight contender Chuck Hunter used to train.

Schwartz and Familton watched awesome lightweights like Laguna, Enrique Bolanos and the great Ike Williams train at the Main Street.

“Davey Moore, Harold Johnson, and Joe Fraizer trained there when they were in town,” Familton said. “I saw Hurricane Carter train there. Joe Louis and I once watched Buster Mathis Sr. and his coach Joey Fariello, a really top trainer, train there. That was a thrill.”

I got the feeling that Familton and Schwartz got the same thrill watching Hopkins this past Monday afternoon.

“It’s all basic fundamentals with Bernard,” he said. “Chin tucked, hands up, elbows in, knees slightly bent, weight distributed properly, stepping on every punch, his head stays inline in-between the legs – there’s no leaning forward or back when he punches or moves about – it’s just the basics.”

And Hopkins does it so well.

“What a pleasure it is to see a fighter with fundamentals this sound,” said Familton. “There’s no secrets in what he’s doing. You’d think you’d see more of this, but you don’t.

“I come into gyms all the time and see a thousand guys working out who don’t do this.

“It’s simple, but it isn’t.”

“Watch this now, watch!” ‘Coach Familton’ ordered as I drifted off in thought while scribbling in my notebook. “He’s stepping on every punch. I don’t look at his upper body, I look at the feet. He steps with every punch, steps in, and then right back out. In and out; in and out. I love it!

“Then he hooks off the jab. Another thing you don’t see done properly anymore. Look how tight his hook is. Everything is close to his body as he delivers it. His arms aren’t way out to his side. Are you watching this, Doug? Look at that, a triple jab! And he steps with each jab. Beautiful!

“Oh my God! A feint and hook! Watch this stuff, man, stop writing! Just watch and learn. Watch and learn.”

Because Coach Familton said so, I put down my notebook and focused 100 percent of my attention on the master in the ring, who was now working mitts with Roach.

“There’s nice rhythm on his punches,” Familton said. “Did you notice that? Don’t just watch, listen. Bap, bap, bap. Bap, bap, bap. I always listen to the cadence the punches make on the bag or mitts.”

“I don’t learn anything watching Bernard Hopkins,” Familton said as we left the gym with Schwartz and Husky to grab some lunch. “He just affirms what I’ve learned from the greats 50 and 60 years ago.”

I definitely learned something watching Hopkins and listening to Familton this past Monday.

Who knows? Maybe 30 or 40 years from now (if I’m lucky enough to still be around and clear headed enough to talk about the past) I might tell some young whippersnapper that watching Hopkins was about as good as it gets.