Mount Rushmore of HW punchers

Who did Wilder face in the last eight years who wasn't ranked by the other sanctioning bodies?

Fury was ranked by the other bodies, right? He's won all the belts. Breazeale was ranked by the other bodies (hell, he fought for the IBF belt, too.) Molina was ranked by by the other bodies after he knocked out Adamek. (He fought for the IBF belt, too.) Luis Ortiz was ranked by the other bodies and has been offered title shots to compete for all the belts. Hell, Szpilka was ranked higher in the IBF (#6) when Wilder fought him than he was in the WBC. Gerald Washington was ranked by the other bodies. He was still fighting in IBF eliminators just a few years ago. Stiverne was ranked by everyone before he won the WBC belt. Helenius was ranked by everyone. His wins over Kownacki (who was a top 10 Ring heavyweight when Helenius beat him) was a WBA Eliminator. Duhaupas was ranked by the other bodies after he knocked out Helenius.

 

Deontay Wilder was fighting TYSON FURY for the titles instead of Hrgovic and Joyce. They weren't even PROS when Wilder won the title. They didn't even have their pro debuts until the end of the THIRD YEAR of Wilder's reign. They were making their pro debuts when Wilder was knocking out his mandatory the former WBC champ Stiverne and then facing the unbeaten Luis Ortiz and the unbeaten Tyson Fury.

How bat**** stupid or over-the-top troll does someone have to be to complain about Wilder not fighting guys who didn't even turn pro until his reign was half over?

Hell, fighting them instead of Tyson Fury wouldn't be better NOW, let alone then. They aren't better than Tyson Fury.

No one you listed would've been a better opponent than fighting Tyson Fury three times. No one. No one has even drawn with Tyson Fury let alone successfully defended anything against him, except WILDER.

Nobody bashes Earnie Shavers for fighting Larry Holmes twice and saying he should've fought someone with 10 wins instead. Imagine if Earnie had actually won a title and made 10 successful defenses and ALSO fought Holmes a couple times. And imagine if Earnie dropped Larry four times instead of one?

Would you be eviscerating him like this?

Why you have such a huge bug up your ass about Wilder is mind boggling.

You're bashing who he fought and who he beat in his 13 HEAVYWEIGHT title fights ... and complaining he was fighting nobodies instead of the best, then when he fought the best complained he wasn't fighting nobodies ...

And, frankly, if Wilder had picked Andy Ruiz to fight in 2019, like Joshua did, instead of his mandatory Breazeale or giving Ortiz a return, and wasted Ruiz in the third like Joshua should've done when he put him down, you guys would be bashing Wilder for fighting fat Andy who just got dumped by Bob Arum because he sucked so hard.

Because Andy Ruiz sure as **** wasn't a RING ranked contender when Joshua lost to him.

There's no winning with you guys. NONE. Looks like many people have come around. You, sir, are bringing up the rear.

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Someone always has to finish last, I guess.

I hope Wilder fights Andy Ruiz next. And we'll see if you are glowing with your praise. (Why do I sense you won't?)

Why do I sense no matter who Wilder fights, you'll have something negative to say?

 

Who did Shavers and Baer lose to and who did Wilder lose to?

How many title defenses did they have? You think Bob Stallings or Jim Braddock beats Wilder like they did Shavers and Baer, respectively?

Utter nonsense.

As far as the crude skills comment, when did Shavers and Baer ever move and throw laser shots like that? I'm now convinced you haven't actually watched a fight in the last decade.

He didn't knock out Helenius with a Max Baer backhand, that's for sure.

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I'm not reading all this crap. I already told you I'm not willing to put Wilder as #1 until we see him fight better opponents, period.

When he retires, historians will look at who he fought and how good they were at the time he fought them. They will also notice glaring holes in his resume if he doesn't fight Usyk, Ruiz, Joshua, Joyce, etc. Truly elite punching power is about stopping elite opponents, point blank period. Wilder has SEVERAL elite fighters he can test his power against. Until he does, he isn't going to be #1 on my list. Cry about it if you want.

 

Joyce. If he'd only fought Joyce.

You'll come around eventually.

I have faith in you.

 

Yeah because Joyce is the only boxer I mentioned. You think I haven't noticed you keep ignoring the most important names I bring up like...Usyk...? Wladmir? Joshua? Ruiz? Whyte? Parker? You're being facetious and you know it. Let's only stick to guys who were ranked or had belts at the time Wilder was champion:

-When Wilder KOd fringe #10 contender Washington, was that best possible KO win at the time? Better than if he had KOd the undefeated WBO champion Joseph Parker?

-When Wilder KOd Stiverne in the rematch of 2017, was that the most convincing display of power? More convincing than if he had KOd the undefeated WBA/IBF champion Joshua...?

 

Ellis went the distance with a faded Ellis, while Ali stopped a prime one. It's almost like these things have little to no correlation when it comes to punching power. Certainly not as reliable as testimonies of common opponents.

That's exactly what I'm saying. That's a lot more likely to me than discounting three common opponents and a trainer who oversaw both of them as well as Tyson who all said Liston hit harder.

You're correct, Liston beat more ranked contenders. Even Patterson did.

With the exception of Frazier tbh, I'd take Liston's list over Foreman's and would pick Williams to sweep that lineup, with the possible exception of Peralta. I'd pick Patterson to sweep that lineup as well tbh.

 

Or we can get really radical and just go with the thread request.

 

Why do you think this is a good approach?

Would it be better if Earnie actually fought George Chuvalo in 1970 and stopped him instead of fighting novice pug Ron Stander and Earnie getting knocked out?

Considering total novice nobody Joe Alexander had Quarry on the floor in the first round (one fight later) and nearly out, wouldn't it have been better if Earnie Shavers (who is supposedly one of the best punchers ever) actually beat Quarry and Earnie had not been knocked out himself in one round?

Would it be better if Earnie Shavers actually fought Oscar Bonavena in 1974 and won instead of fighting an unranked journeyman with a losing record Bob Stallings and Earnie losing?

Would it be better if Earnie Shavers actually FOUGHT the WBA Heavyweight Champion Mike Weaver in 1980 and knocked him out and Earnie became a heavyweight champion instead of Earnie getting knocked out by every ranked contender he fought in 1980 - including Tex Cobb (who didn't stop any boxer ever ranked at all by anyone ... except when he knocked out Earnie)?

Would it be better if Earnie Shavers actually fought Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas in 1982 (who both knocked out Quick Tillis) rather than Earnie fighting Quick Tillis and LOSING to Tillis?

Would it be better if Earnie actually fought Michael Dokes for the top contender spot in the WBA in 1982, instead of Earnie losing to Walter Santemore that year, a journeyman who lost to every last guy in the division.

Would those have been better outcomes? Yet, for some reason, none of that impacts how you rate him in the least. None of those failures to stop hopeless nobodies impact how you rate any of them.

I was actually a fan of Earnie Shavers back then ... and he lost all the goddamn time. If he was on television, the chances were better he'd lose than win, regardless of how inept the opponent was. But when he did win, it was usually a good KO.

What's your point, exactly? You wanted Wilder to unify instead of fighting WBC contender? GREAT!

But Deontay Wilder was one of the most successful heavyweight champions in history, whether that disgusts you or not. Top 10 in numerous categories all time.

And Wilder knocked out everyone he faced over a 14-year career (former and current champs, former and current contenders, boxers, punchers, unbeatens and total bums) ... he knocked everyone out ... except for Tyson Fury, who was much bigger, 40 pounds heavier every time, and Wilder still floored him four times (which matters if we're rating people on power).

No one on the list can say anything remotely like that. None of them knocked out all the guys they fought. ALL the punchers on that list fought a lot of bums, and those punchers didn't even knock all of them out. Earnie had a hard time even winning against some of the bums he faced faced.

Wilder never lost to guys he faced who were 8-1 underdogs, like guys on that list. Aren't you supposed to beat all those guys? Or 42-1 underdogs. Aren't you supposed to beat them? Or 25-1 underdogs. That's supposed to be a win, right? Wilder never lost to light heavys. He never lost to guys with losing records, like guys on that list.

He knocked them all out.

We're just going round and round at this point. You clearly have a bug up your butt about Wilder.

I like all the guys on the list. They were all exciting. They all had flaws, which made them more relatable. Maybe when Wilder retires, you'll approach it with a more open mind.

Until next time.

 

This is a good approach because I'm debunking your "he knocked them all out" argument as if sheer quantity is better than quality.

If you want to determine if someone is an "elite puncher", the general consensus amongst hardcore fans is that they should have elite opponents that they KO'd. Again, other than Ortiz and knocking Fury down which elite opponents did Wilder KO? Many of his opponents just weren't that good, and you keep dancing around this point.

Yes it would be better if Shavers KOd guys like Quarry, Chuvalo,Tillis etc. Did you think I had a criteria for Wilder different from every other puncher in this thread? I'm not biased, I have been an outspoken supporter of Wilder for years (check my post history). I also do not have Shavers #1, but based on sheer power on display, quotes from other fighters, etc he should be on the rushmore. I also have Wilder on my rushmore but you keep crying as if I'm saying he's a fraud with no power. All I said was it would be better if he had more KO wins over elite opponents and this is a problem to you...? You're being disingenuous because you're a fanboy who won't admit a very basic principle 99% of people agree on.

 

If you want to determine an "elite" puncher ... you start with guys who knock out everyone they're supposed to knock out.

That's the BARE minimum you start with.

Not guys who score a random upset KO here or there over a name.

You START with knocking out everyone you're supposed to. That's just the first level.

IF you can't, you'd better have a damn good excuse why you didn't. And most of the guys on that list didn't even do that. Right?

Nobody expects you to KO Ali. They kind of do expect you to knock out Quick Tillis (since 11 or 12 other guys did, after all). They kind of do expect you to knock out light heavyweights who Bennie Briscoe stopped.



Knocking out everyone you fought for 14 years except one guy (the world champ) ... winning the WBC heavyweight title ... holding it for five years ... making 10 successful WBC heavyweight title defenses against WBC ranked opponents, including one successful defense (Wilder's eighth) against Fury ... knocking out the WBA #2 contender in one round, and still, at nearly 38, being the #1 contender in the WBC, WBA ...

And (which should be important to you) STILL being ranked among the top three heavyweight contenders in your precious Ring Magazine

* Wilder has been ranked EVERY SINGLE MONTH from January 2015 to present day September 2023 among the top 3 contenders in Ring Magazine
* 105 consecutive months among the Ring top 3 contenders
* If nothing changes, in January 2024, Wilder will have been rated among the top 3 Ring contenders in every heavyweight top 10 rating, in every month, in every year, for NINE consecutive years.

Who on that list was listed among the Ring Top 3 contenders EVERY MONTH for 9 STRAIGHT YEARS.

Any knockout punchers more consistent than that? In the whole history of that magazine or in the history of the heavyweight division?

And you're the one insisting he hasn't fought anyone and holding up Ring as the example.

Ring certainly hasn't ranked him for the better part of a decade at the top because he hasn't fought anyone.

That says more to me than one KO win over Jimmy Ellis ... followed up by a one-round KO loss to Quarry and getting floored and stopped by a guy with a losing record a few months after that. Scott Ledoux had Ken Norton all but out right after Shavers did. Who cares?

CONSISTENCY.
Beating everyone you're supposed to beat.
Knocking out everyone you're supposed to beat.
Not losing in the biggest upsets in the history of the sport.

If you can't even do that, what's the point?

You act like anyone on that list could've done the same thing. You compared Wilder to Baer. Baer couldn't even beat 8-1 underdog and former light heavy Braddock in his first defense. Braddock had already lost 23 times. And Baer had 15 pounds on him.

Wilder didn't defend against anyone he outweighed ... let alone someone with 23 losses, who previously lost a light heavyweight title challenge, in any title defense ... and LOSE to him.

Wilder hasn't outweighed anyone going on 11 years. And the only guy he faced who he outweighed by 15 pounds in his whole career lasted 64 seconds. Instead, he's just been KNOCKING OUT much bigger people than himself for most of his career.

You just don't get it. Maybe you will when some years have passed. Or maybe you never will.

I don't know what else to tell you. You already said you aren't changing your mind, so there's not much point.

 

Best Punchers:

Louis
Tyson
Marciano
Dempsey

Most Powerful Punchers:

Wilder
Shavers
Foreman
Liston

 

Yeah you start with the beating guys you're supposed to knock out and then you RAISE THE CRITERIA by seeing if they beat elite opponents.

It is not impressive to only knock out opponents you're favored to beat. That doesn't make any sense. At some point you need to start beating opponents who are seen as a difficult challenge due to a higher ranking, solid chin, good defensive skills, etc. How many of Wilder's opponents would you say were difficult challenges on paper and many people thought he might lose? Not that many!

This is why I said you're being OBTUSE. You KNOW it would be more impressive if Wilder knocked out more challenging opponents.

Shavers has more losses because he STEPPED UP in class and fought ELITE OPPONENTS like Ali and Holmes! When is Wilder going to STEP UP and fight guys like USYK? Would a KO over Usyk raise Wilder's credentials as a puncher? YES OR NO?

 

And it's even LESS impressive to fail to knock out or lose to the opponents you're favored to beat, especially when you're a 42-1 favorite or a 25-1 favorite or 10-1 ...

Name the "elite" heavyweights who would be favored to beat Wilder if he only had the "guts" to fight them?

Tyson Fury, of course, would be the favorite. Fury was favored to win in two of their three fights. (But it took Wilder a court order to get Fury in the ring with him last time, and Fury said Wilder gave him brain damage in their third fight. So good luck with that.)

Usyk, given how high people are on him now, would probably be favored. Wilder knocked out #2 WBA contender Helenius to get a top WBA rating. And he got the #1 contender spot. And then the WBA screwed it up by giving the regular belt back to Charr.

But, hopefully, Wilder-Usyk happens. I'd love that. Because a win would make Wilder one of the few in the four-belt era to hold all the heavyweight belts. That would complement his other all-time heavyweight accomplishments nicely.

And, friend, that's about it.

Wilder's even favored to beat Joshua now, even though Wilder is pushing 38.

Wilder said he's going to fight for two more years. Make your list of ELITES who will be favored to beat Wilder. Let's see who he fights between now and age 40.

Because you keep posting names, but I'm not seeing many who would be favored to beat him.

 

On what planet was Bob Stallings an elite heavyweight? Or Ron Stander? Or ... nevermind.

Has it begun to sink in yet ... even a little bit ... that Deontay Wilder IS one of the elites of the division?

Because I get the impression ...

Despite Wilder's five year title reign ... his 13 WBC heavyweight title fights ... his being ranked every month for nearly nine straight years near the very top of the Ring ratings ... the fact that he knocked out everyone he faced but one person ... and the fact that he'd be favored to beat basically everyone in the division except the two guys with the belts at the moment ... and he's already floored one of them four times and apparently given him brain damage ...

Despite all that being laid out for you ...

That you haven't even figured that part out yet.

Wilder is one of the top elite heavyweights. He has been for a very long time. Going on nine years now.

Most everyone fighting now would be an underdog against him. There has never been a long list of guys for him to upset.

Just like there isn't now.