Of course not. But if you fight as often as he did you can't face world class opposition all the time, there just isn't enough of them. He faced Elllis, Quarry (twice), Bonavena, Norton (twice), Bugner and Patterson without even being champ. That's not bad. But as a champion you, of course, should fight the best opposition as often as possible. Amazing how many who haven't, really.
The reason I mention Chuvalo and Lyle is because they were coming off losses when they fought Ali. Ron Lyle was coming off a ten-round decision loss to Jimmy Young (who wasn't rated particularly highly AT THAT TIME). I read somewhere that it wasn't even close - Young outboxed him rather easily - but I dont know for sure. The original venue for Ali-Lyle turned it down when it was proposed after the Young fight. I dont think coming off a 10-round loss qualifies as "eminently deserving" of a title shot. Likewise, Chuvalo had been outboxed by Eduardo Corletti in his fight before Ali. And Corletti was no great shakes.
Wepner was a big club-fighter. He was nothing. He beat maybe one or two okay journeymen, and had a scandalous gift decision against former contender Ernie Terrell. But if he was a genuine contender in the early 70s then that must have been a very weak era. Before Ali fought Foreman in Zaire he mentioned Chuck Wepner in a press conference. Not as a prospective opponent, but as an example among many of the types of BUMS Foreman had been fighting. From Norman Mailer's book "the Fight" : To the press I say this, said Ali. I fought twenty ranked contenders before Foreman had his first fight! Ali sneered. How could the press in its ignorance comprehend such boxing culture? Now, let Angelo read the list of Foremans fights. As the names went by, Ali did not stop making faces. Don Waldheim. A nobody. Fred Askew. A nobody. Sylvester Dullaire. A nobody. Chuck Wepner. Nobody. John Carroll. Nobody. Cookie Wallace. Nobody. Vernon Clay, said Dundee. Ali hesitated. Vernon Clay - he might be good. The press laughed. They laughed again at Alis comment for Gary Hobo Wilder - a tramp.. Now came a few more called nobody. Ali said in disgust, If I fought these bums, you people would put me outside the fight game.
Truly, I dont rate Henry Cooper much higher than Brian London. And I absolutely think Chuvalo's merits (coming off a loss to Corletti going in) for a title shot were dubious. I've seen the documentary "The Last Round" where Chuvalo claims he was robbed against Terrell, but someone wrote into Boxing News querying that, and BN said their own ringside reporter had Terrell quite a clear winner if I remember rightly. I haven't seen the fight to say whether I think that was a robbery or not, but I do know I only have Chuvalo as a witness that it was, as of now. The jury is still out.
Henry Cooper got the title shot because he knocked Ali down in the first fight, and the split glove and all that. Ali should really have fought Terrell in Toronto, but since the whole "ain't got no quarell"-ruckus came in between and Terrell pulled out Chuvalo became an almost last minute replacement. But seriously, this is a bit silly. If you go over every contender like that, you're gonna find a lot of similar things. Chuvalo was a consistent top 10 contender for most of the 60's and Lyle for much of the 70's. They were no bums. You have a guy that met ca 30 ranked contenders during his career (some 50% of his total fights) and here and there he had some easy fill-out fights. So what? Personally, I feel one fight is missing from Ali's record, and that's a rematch against D. Jones. Otherwise, it looks good to me.
While heir credentials might have been questionable at the time the fights took place, I do think that Ali was going to have to meet both these guys at some point.
Well, that's the whole premise of the thread. If I ask who's the best fighter Ali fought in a title fight, we're just going to be talking about Liston, Frazier and Foreman again. Or we could just rehash the same stuff about him fighting great opposition. That's the same old stuff we can read in books or magazines. I like Chuvalo for his toughness and aggression, but I wonder how he was rated by the pundits and fans of the 60s. Obviously Canada loved him.
You are underrating Cooper then. He was ranked in the ring top10 a total of 7 years, 3 of which in the top5. Brian London only managed to breach the top10 twice, at the lowest possible spot of #10. Cooper is clearly a level above London in any way possible. It's a pity Cooper is mostly remembered as a cut prone, small fighter with only a left hook, but he was pretty good. And no one can take the fact that he is the closest man on the planet to knock out Ali, away from him.
Henry was a warrior and that was a hell of a hook he landed on Ali...Cooper was a much better fighter than London....As an older fighter him and big Joe Bugner fought to a close scrap...Patterson stopped him cold but Henry was one of the best to come out of England and Europe in those days...Things have changed but Henry was no Bum
I fully agree with this one. If I recall Cooper's two fights with Ali, he was giving Ali a run for his money in both fights until the thin skin around the eyes let go as it did in alot of his fights. I remember watching the Ali-London (fight?) . There was no fight and London folded like an accordian when Ali hit him a few times.This is the only London (battle) I ever saw. After seeing this pathetic effort by London I am amazed he was able to defeat Zora Folley and also knock Ingemar Johannson down and almost out. So maybe poor old Brian was alot better than I give him credit for.
I don't know what you found funny, but it might be worth being more precise. When I said Tyson's reign might be the best I meant in terms of average level of opposition. All his challengers was legitimate contenders (well, Biggs...). But all in all I view Louis's reign as the greatest, encompassing 12 years and 25 defences as it did.