Muhammad Ali 1966 vs the best versions of Frazier/Foreman/Norton

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Drago, Oct 17, 2020.


  1. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders NSB defector Full Member

    6,039
    2,158
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 13, 2012
    We need to have this discussion again. If my house caught fire, I'd have this discussion before getting out. 100%
     
  2. Wvboxer

    Wvboxer Member Full Member

    411
    69
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 20, 2013
    It’s been a while since I watched it but I thought Ali was pretty sharp in his 2nd fight with Chuvalo. Maybe it was closer than the first fight but Ali still won easily to me. This was close to peak 70’s Ali I think.
     
  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,055
    3,326
    Sportsbook:
    1,042
    Jul 30, 2014
    Patterson and Chuvalo both stated that Ali was not the same fighter he used to be the second time around.
     
  4. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,055
    3,326
    Sportsbook:
    1,042
    Jul 30, 2014
    VERY unpopular opinion...









    But since Frazier is my favorite fighter, I'll embrace it. :D
     
  5. Brockton Rock

    Brockton Rock Member Full Member

    150
    107
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 24, 2020
    Only fighter that beats this version of Ali is Marciano
     
  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    21,667
    3,613
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 4, 2008
    He had him not coming out for the 15th because of the punches he had dished out.

    I think it's clear to see that he had more left in Manilla than Ali had. Which stands to reason since he was younger, had had fewer fights and fewer tough fights.

    Tactical adaptions from Ali were the main reason Manilla went a different route than FOTC imo.
     
    Richard M Murrieta likes this.
  7. Drago

    Drago Member Full Member

    159
    92
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 27, 2013
    Of course you are right.
    Shame on me for not mentioning Patterson besides Chuvalo!
     
  8. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,173
    3,705
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 9, 2020
    It does make a little sense to me anyways. Chuvalo gave Ali some difficulty in both matches, whereas Floyd only managed to do that in that in the second one.
     
    Richard M Murrieta likes this.
  9. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,632
    3,494
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 23, 2019
    I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Ali was carrying a back-pain riddled Patterson through that fight. I got the feeling he felt guilty about the first fight and wanted to make it up by giving Floyd a nice payday.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  10. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,173
    3,705
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 9, 2020
    U r correct. Otherwise, Patterson could have made a competitive night out of it. He had speed enough to trouble even Ali.
     
  11. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,330
    963
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 16, 2012
    I dunno that Frazier had more left. They both were significantly reduced-Ali may have declined more in terms of foot speed compared to the '60's, but Frazier lost more since FOTC.
    Ali did not take so much damage in many fights. Frazier had fewer fights bit some wars, & the 2 years age gap is less important than a smaller swarmer has less of a shelf life than a larger boxer type.
    Ali also had the 3 & a 1/2 years off-sure he accumulated rust, but did not take punishment.

    I think Ali's tactics worked better because Frazier could not take quite as much punishment as during FOTC.
    Where he took more shots than Ali even though clearly deserved the win.
    Futch himself said that Ali had "outgrown" Frazier, which of course only applies not just because Ali was bigger, but still highly skilled.
     
  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    21,667
    3,613
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 4, 2008
    Since FOTC Ali had had 18 fights, 14 of them against ranked opp. Two of those were brutal wars with Norton plus a tough fight with Foreman.

    Frazier had had seven fights, four of them against ranked opp. The one really tough fight was the one against Foreman.


    And seen over their whole careers Ali had had more tough fights as well. Jones, Cooper and Bonavena could be added, while Frazier only had the first Bonavena fight as a really tough one except those against Ali and Foreman.

    Ali also had had more fights in total and many more rds. He met about as many ranked opponents just in the space between FOTC and Manilla as Joe did in his whole career.

    Also Joe was still in more or less typical prime age at 29 going on 30, while Ali for the time was quite old at 33 going on 34.

    Lastly, it's clear from looking at the fight that Ali had lost both speed and stamina from his prime self, while Frazier's stamina looked as endless as ever, even though he had slowed down.

    And, btw, Futch also mentioned Ali's tactics as being crucial for the outcome.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020 at 2:24 AM
  13. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,330
    963
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 16, 2012

    Oh yeah Bokaj? Well there is a good explanation for all of your claims...
    Which is-that you are overwhelmingly correct! ;-)

    I knew Ali ha a lot more fights in the '70's. It is just that he seemed able to absorb more punishment overall, & his size likely helped.
    I dunno if I would describe something like the Jones fight as very enervating. Sure it was competitive, but Jones did not hit that hard. Iff you use that maybe you gotta use the fairly close fight Frazier had with Bugner, or being down against say Bruce, or even Stander rocking him briefly...
    But your overall point is quite valid.

    Frazier did not have quite the stamina he had in FOTC-otherwise he could might have taken control in Manilla.
    You will say it is down to tactics, but Ali was tough in the early rounds in '71, Frazier just had less ability to rebound.
    Sure Ali needed the tactics to win. But I do not think it would have been enough against a Frazier from FOTC.
    But as I said considered from the '60's & foot speed & less ability to dance for a whole fight-OK, Ali lost more.

    Frazier's fights even taking the same punishment had more impact upon him than ones Ali had.
    I wonder if Joe's drinking played a part?
     
  14. Robertus Ramsey

    Robertus Ramsey New Member Full Member

    48
    32
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 24, 2019

    Joe had the best left hook ever did he? A past his best Ali did horrible damage to a prime Joe, Imagine an active version of Ali if he was stripped and exiled!
     
  15. Robertus Ramsey

    Robertus Ramsey New Member Full Member

    48
    32
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 24, 2019