Muhammad Ali 1966 vs the best versions of Frazier/Foreman/Norton

We need to have this discussion again. If my house caught fire, I'd have this discussion before getting out. 100%

 

It’s been a while since I watched it but I thought Ali was pretty sharp in his 2nd fight with Chuvalo. Maybe it was closer than the first fight but Ali still won easily to me. This was close to peak 70’s Ali I think.

 

Patterson and Chuvalo both stated that Ali was not the same fighter he used to be the second time around.

 

VERY unpopular opinion...









But since Frazier is my favorite fighter, I'll embrace it.

 

Only fighter that beats this version of Ali is Marciano

 

He had him not coming out for the 15th because of the punches he had dished out.

I think it's clear to see that he had more left in Manilla than Ali had. Which stands to reason since he was younger, had had fewer fights and fewer tough fights.

Tactical adaptions from Ali were the main reason Manilla went a different route than FOTC imo.

 

It does make a little sense to me anyways. Chuvalo gave Ali some difficulty in both matches, whereas Floyd only managed to do that in that in the second one.

 

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Ali was carrying a back-pain riddled Patterson through that fight. I got the feeling he felt guilty about the first fight and wanted to make it up by giving Floyd a nice payday.

 

U r correct. Otherwise, Patterson could have made a competitive night out of it. He had speed enough to trouble even Ali.

 

I dunno that Frazier had more left. They both were significantly reduced-Ali may have declined more in terms of foot speed compared to the '60's, but Frazier lost more since FOTC.
Ali did not take so much damage in many fights. Frazier had fewer fights bit some wars, & the 2 years age gap is less important than a smaller swarmer has less of a shelf life than a larger boxer type.
Ali also had the 3 & a 1/2 years off-sure he accumulated rust, but did not take punishment.

I think Ali's tactics worked better because Frazier could not take quite as much punishment as during FOTC.
Where he took more shots than Ali even though clearly deserved the win.
Futch himself said that Ali had "outgrown" Frazier, which of course only applies not just because Ali was bigger, but still highly skilled.

 

Since FOTC Ali had had 18 fights, 14 of them against ranked opp. Two of those were brutal wars with Norton plus a tough fight with Foreman.

Frazier had had seven fights, four of them against ranked opp. The one really tough fight was the one against Foreman.


And seen over their whole careers Ali had had more tough fights as well. Jones, Cooper and Bonavena could be added, while Frazier only had the first Bonavena fight as a really tough one except those against Ali and Foreman.

Ali also had had more fights in total and many more rds. He met about as many ranked opponents just in the space between FOTC and Manilla as Joe did in his whole career.

Also Joe was still in more or less typical prime age at 29 going on 30, while Ali for the time was quite old at 33 going on 34.

Lastly, it's clear from looking at the fight that Ali had lost both speed and stamina from his prime self, while Frazier's stamina looked as endless as ever, even though he had slowed down.

And, btw, Futch also mentioned Ali's tactics as being crucial for the outcome.

 

Oh yeah Bokaj? Well there is a good explanation for all of your claims...
Which is-that you are overwhelmingly correct! ;-)

I knew Ali ha a lot more fights in the '70's. It is just that he seemed able to absorb more punishment overall, & his size likely helped.
I dunno if I would describe something like the Jones fight as very enervating. Sure it was competitive, but Jones did not hit that hard. Iff you use that maybe you gotta use the fairly close fight Frazier had with Bugner, or being down against say Bruce, or even Stander rocking him briefly...
But your overall point is quite valid.

Frazier did not have quite the stamina he had in FOTC-otherwise he could might have taken control in Manilla.
You will say it is down to tactics, but Ali was tough in the early rounds in '71, Frazier just had less ability to rebound.
Sure Ali needed the tactics to win. But I do not think it would have been enough against a Frazier from FOTC.
But as I said considered from the '60's & foot speed & less ability to dance for a whole fight-OK, Ali lost more.

Frazier's fights even taking the same punishment had more impact upon him than ones Ali had.
I wonder if Joe's drinking played a part?

 

Joe had the best left hook ever did he? A past his best Ali did horrible damage to a prime Joe, Imagine an active version of Ali if he was stripped and exiled!