Muhammad Ali 1972 v Mike Tyson 1991

Stated very, very well. And Ali was a MASTER at taking a fighter right down to his core. Tyson's core failed him time and time again, I don't believe when the fight was close and the going got tough, he'd magically be strong enough to will past Ali.

Tyson had more power, speed and dimension than Frazier, probably even a better chin, but he was not tougher. Frazier could take a licking, physically and mentally, and keep coming, consistently, like Joe Frazier. Mike Tyson could take the punches and keep getting off his stool, but his punch output would start to dip, he'd move less and less, the fouls would start to come thicker, etc. etc. till he came apart at the seams. Ali had the chin and the will to survive Tyson, Tyson lacked the same equation to see 15 rounds with Ali out on top. He may very well here the final bell, but at some point, be so thoroughly undressed that he'd have started losing too many rounds to win.

 

tyson could never handle a tough-fight in teh trenches - proof is VS Holyfeild X2 , Lennox , Danny-W And MCbide. thumbsup

v.goood point - Tyson mental-Core was always v.WEAk - it failed him VS Holyfeild X2 , Lennox , McBide And Danny-W.:thumbsup + it v.nearly failed him VS Botha to.

Frazier take punishment MUch better And never quit - he mentaly And physicallly teh much tougher man - tyson punch output was low VS Douglas , Holyfeild And Lennox cos he mentally dinnt wanna fight back - Too-WEAK in teh head. + you right about teh fouls cos Tyson fouled Douglas lots And should have been DQ - BUT i happy he not DQ cos it made me v.happy And laugh when i see him KTFO :rofl

if Liston , Foreman AND Frazier cannt stop Ali - no ****ing way teh inferior power/fightr Tyson could :thumbsup + tyson only 5 roundz of good-stamina - not 15 roundz like Frazier - so Any Tyson could never decision over Ali even if it 12 or 10 roundz - BUt obv this fight be 15 roundz cos Ali would choose. :deal

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This teh v.genuis bit - i 1000% agree as you boxing-Xpert. :thumbsup

That exact what happend VS Douglas , Holyfeild 1 , Lennox And MCbide. :thumbsup nowt really too do with his shitty 5 roundz stamina - it really cos he mentally knew he cannt win if fight HARD and get past round 5 - so he mentally quits - turns up for teh round for his purse - BUT doesnnt even try properly cos he knew he cannt win even with his best-Haymakers - so he keep fouling to try get out of fight. When taking punishment - instead of takin' it like a WARRIOR like Frazier And Holyfeild - he mentally came apart EVERY-TiME like when a kitten play with ball of wool deal

 

First of all, Tucker and Smith went the distance because they didn't engage enough and fought only to survive. Fortunately for them they had the height and size to last the distance without suffering a KO but engaging would have most certainly shortened the night.

Secondly, Ali being better in all departments is an irrelevant statement because neither Smith nor Tucker fought remotely similar to Ali and in boxing styles makes fights. Additionally Smith had considerably more power than Ali so the "all departments" argument is pretty off.

As for the fight itself its really a 50/50 when all is considered.

I can envision either fighter pulling it off TBH.

 

Tyson had a far better chin than Frazier and was far better offensively. His ability to take punishment far exceeds that of Frazier who in the Foreman fights proved that his chin can be cracked by top tier power. Whereas Tyson can sustain punishment from elite level punchers over the duration of a fight. His power, speed and defense would make it a different fight, despite being having a similar style.

Tyson was a far better offensive fighter than Frazier; Everything Joe did was almost a prelude to his left hook. Tyson's left hook was on par with Joe's and his right hand was even better.

If Frazier took the same punishment from Douglas that Tyson did, he would have succumbed much sooner.

Tyson was always a warrior, when the going got tough he would fight instinctively to do whatever it takes to win.

Against Douglas we saw Tyson's resolve materialize when he dropped Douglas in the 8th round desperately trying to end what was a run on his title. He was too far gone physically that point to see it thru but his mental make up was such that he was willing to will his way thru to get the victory. Frazier gets credit for LOSING to Ali in Manila because he showed heart but when Tyson shows heart in Tokyo it doesn't count?

Against Holyfield I. Look at the 10th round. Tyson came in unprepared to a fight, found himself on the canvas gets up and continues to press forward. Was he discouraged? Yes. Every fighter gets discouraged when faced with adversity but he responded by trying to win.
That 10th round for the first 2:30 was all Tyson until he got caught coming in. Then it went to Holyfield big. But he to this day states that he was incoherent throughout most of the fight as a result of head-butting. There was always a look of resolve in Mike in that first fight.

Tyson has gotten grossly underrated these days you'd think that he was a journey man from how people talk

 

When he was still trying (in the first 3 rds) Tucker fought an Ali kind of fight and won two of the rounds. The main difference is that Ali would keep it up much better, wouldn't settle into survival mode.

Tillis, Tucker and Thomas all gave Tyson some problems with a good jab and movement, and Douglas dominated Tyson with this as base. Now, Ali didn't have quite the same legs in '72 as before the exile, but his jab and his movement were all well ahead of these guys'.

 

Pretty much. Styles do make fights, but all these guys who troubled Tyson and the guy who beat him had their best success mimicking Ali.

Nobody is questioning that Tyson has heart and chin. But the proof of a lack of mental strength and security is very much in the pudding. Frazier was weaker, but was tougher. I personally think that isn't disputable.

 

Frazier showed much more heart in Manila then Tyson did in Tokyo. He was much more competitive, much more dogged, and fought his ass off. Tyson would throw a couple punches, miss, get hit, tie up, rinse lather repeat. His uppercut was his one moment, a big haymaker, and after it didn't work, he dutifully resumed getting his ass beat. Frazier simply tried harder in Manila, and never broke. Tyson very much broke in the 9th. He had given up.

Other than that, I actually agree with your points. Holyfield 1, Tyson shows more heart than usually and doesn't actually break as bad as he did in his other losses. I also agree about Tyson being the more complete and thus effective fighter.

But Fraziers head and heart >>> Tyson's. And this is where Ali makes a meal out of Mike.

 

Having more success in a fight isn't what mental strength is about. Its about overcoming your shortcomings to the best of your ability. Frazier did that against Ali in Manila. He came up short and was from a scoring stand point out of the fight as early as the 11th but he kept trying until the wheels came off.

As for Mike, watch that 9th round again. Tyson came out furiously and with more purpose than he had since early in the fight. He saw his window of opportunity to end the current nightmare he was in and he wasn't about to let off. But at that point he had taken a beating and a half, his eye was swollen shut, he was on shaky legs and he wasn't coherent enough or conditioned enough to pull it off. But his desire was there. I don't care who you are, no self-respecting undisputed heavyweight champion is going to let his "0" go without a fight. Maybe later on in his career he was more so a game loser than a warrior but on that night by the time he realized that the his titles were walking away from him he fought hard, he fought furiously- he simply was under conditioned on the one night he couldn't afford to be.

If he had given up, he would have went down in the 9th. But his ability to keep his balance even when he's somewhat incoherent is pretty good. Against Douglas in the 9th he was caught with a big combination that should have sent him down and he sort of bounced a bit catching his balance. Same in his first fight with Evander in the 10th round He sort of hopped around to stay on his feet. A man who has given up would have simply went down. It is by far the easier thing to do. But he didn't.

His uppercut was his moment of resolve; it was Joe Louis looking to put away Billy Conn, it was Rocky Marciano looking to put away Joe Walcott, it was trying to find lightning in a bottle; but alas it wasn't his night.

I don't think Frazier showed more heart in Manila- its difficult to prove. Most of us that post in the classic weren't old enough to remember that fight and some of us weren't even born. But the sentiment that arose from Manila was such that Joe did everything to win (which I agree with by the way) and of course his hatred for Ali gave him incentive enough to try his heart out. But there was no animosity between Douglas and Tyson. This was a routine defense that turned ugly for the champion. Tyson's will to win was certainly high. He let a scared fighter get brave and by the time he started to fight with intensity, he was already impaired and physically he couldn't muster the energy to turn it around.

Had the internet been around during Ali vs. Frazier III and we came to ESB, you'd have some of idiots claiming Joe quit or has no heart. They would have claimed he fell apart when the going got tough. But fortunately for Joe this fight happened before the era of Online Boxing Forums and the right sentiment was given regarding this affair.

Nobody claimed Tyson quit after the fight, during the time period after the fight nobody claimed he gave up or quit.

 

Tyson was extremely exhausted, but he was doing what he could. I would say he was fighting his butt off, he just didnt have it that night and Douglas was lit up. You only have to watch the first round of this clip. Tyson didnt show any lack of character, just lack of conditioning and direction in my opinion. Douglas was the better man that night.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KNuAVivQkU&p=E1146A48C88F4F36&playnext=1&index=22[/ame]

 

I also think Frazier had much superior stamina and workrate. Tyson's pressure eased off quite clearly after about 3 rds, Frazier kept it up as long as it took.

 

After rewatching, I've changed my mind about the giving up. :thumbsup

He does try. Not particularly hard, really, but he certainly comes out looking to put Douglas down again. I see a marked discouragement in him very soon. Which is very understandable. That he kept fighting at all, your right, is impressive.

That said, Frazier fought to the end. I still don't think Tyson did, and Frazier had taken more punishment. But Tyson did show more character in Tokyo then I had in my memory bank, upon rewatching with that in mind, I will say. After fighting an all but disinterested fight, he lands the uppercut, and it does light him up a bit more than I remembered.