Muhammad Ali v. James Jeffries (15 rounds)

Look at the men Jeffries kod,factor in their weight and age when he met them ,look how many rounds they went with him and read the reports of the damage they inflicted on Jeffries ,before succumbing to his youth strength and superior weight ,do you see a 40 year old Boxer ,weighing 172 ,breaking Foreman s nose and gashing both his eyes before finally falling in the 8th round ,do you think a fitz or a coming out of retirement 33 year old Corbett weighing 30 lbs les s than him could go 10 rounds with Foreman?
I say Foreman hit harder than Jeffries ,can you find a boxing writer who doesnt agree with me? Can you show me a 6 3 heavy weighing 212 or over that was in his prime when Jeffries kod him? Jeffries feasted on past their prime ex champs who were inside the LH limit,and they gave him a very hard time before he got to them ,Corbett boxed his ears off for 20 rounds before tiring and getting stopped in the 23rd ,Fitz ,a big middle ,punched the **** out of Jeffries and made a mess of him,before age and superior weight got the best of him. I wouldnt put Jeffries in my list of top punchers ,but I would certainly include Foreman.

 

Which historians in 1975 rated Jeffries the strongest heavyweight,I have no doubt ,he was one of them ,but that is a very sweeping statement ,I asked which legitimate punches Ali complained of,and if he complained do you think that means he was vulnerable to a body attack? was he ever dropped by a body shot ? He took Foremnas ,shots Chuvalos x2 Fraziers x3 Listons,big shots from Shavers,Lyle,big hooks to the body from Norton,what makes you think he would falter from Jeffries body shots?
I dont want to get into a rehash of old ground regarding Jeffires merits weve been over that allready,we have differring opinions of his abilities,the thread was Ali v Jeffries over 15 ,I say Ali outboxes Jeffries comfortably and puts some serious damage on his face,he could even tko Jeffries via cuts ,but I gave Jefries the benefit of the doubt there,no way dos he ko Jefries and ,given that Ali took the opunches of men who I think hit harder than Jeffries ,there is no way I see Jeffries stopping Ali.and as for outpointing him--------.

 

Sure, but it has to be viewed this way. Foreman hit harder at the start of a fight, but I beleive Jeffries carried his power, and likely hit hard from say round 6 to finish. I think most boxing writers who know the hisotry of boxing would tend to agree with this.

Foreman could hit, but he did take guys like Davila ( 21-15, lasted 8 rounds ) , Forte ( 19-21-2, lasted 10 rounds ) Perelta ( 77-5-8 , lasted 10 rounds ) the distance.

Forte and Pereltat were under 200 pounds. Davila was 203. If the Perelta fight was 15 rounds, Perelata might have won late via TKO as Foreman was out of gas.

 

Gilbert Odd and David Woulbugy.

A few quotes, then I am gone for the day.

Gilbert Odd (1974) " Jeffries was the strongest of the heavyweight champions in both hitting power and build. " Odd was born in 1902, and died in 1996. He saw a lot of boxing, but date this quote until 1974.

New Brown ( date unknown ) "He was one of the most powerfully built, could take a solid punch, and had acquired a fair amount of boxing skill by the time he tangled with Jim Corbett in their second match. Jeff had as deadly wallop as any I've ever seen"

I look for the Willougby quote later.

There are a few more out there, but most of them focus on hitting power, not raw strength, which is what you were looking for.

There is a photo of Jeffries picking up two men off the ground, each one neatly tucked underneath his arm pits. This is a feat of strength.
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Im familiar with Gilbert Odds work,he stated that Jack Johnson was the greatest Heavweight of all time a remark you were less than happy with as I recall!New Brown and Dave Will bougy are unknowns to me,any quotes from people like Heinz,Liebling ,Rice,Waters,Batchelor,Sugar,Goldman,Fleischer,Loubet,Roberts supporting your claim? Maybe Appollack could help out here? Im not familiar with his work ,but have read positive things about his books.Do you think Jeffries power was the equal or better than Foremans? the examples of Foremans you gave were all before he won the title ,I notice.

 

Well, Fleischer also says that Marciano is only the #10 hw of all time right before Liston came up, and ranked Dempsey over Louis.

Other historians believe that Jesus walked on water.


Does that mean we should take those for granted? Jeffries was a huge man for his day, no doubt, but in Ali's day, that was the average size for a heavyweight. I don't doubt that Jeffries was strong, but i hardly think he's significantly stronger than Chuvalo. Ali has proven his strength vs bulldogs like Frazier and Liston, and a big guy in Foreman as well as others. Jeffries hasn't. And that is a fact, not a historian's opinion.

 

I agree with some of your post but I would put Marciano about no10 myself and feel Dempsey would have beaten Louis,though Louis was probably the more complete fighter.

 

Which nine fighters pre-Liston would you consider better than Marciano?

 

Pre Liston Johnson Dempsey and Louis for sure ,possibly Jeffries.I see what you mean taking in Fleischers time scale. I would put them something like this in all time terms.Ali
Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Holmes
Liston
Foreman
Lewis
Marciano /Frazier

 

Do you think Jeffries hit harder than Foreman?of course Im guessing so is anybody,if you dont go by Boxing qriters who do you read to form your opinions?Can you form an opinion of Jeffries style form the littl film available?I think the amount of rounds that Lhs went with Jeffries,and they were men past their prime tells us a lot about how much power he had,you say he was a patient stalker,well Fitz broke his hands on Jeffries facebefore going down ,this was when Fitz was 40 years old and 47 lbs lighter than Jeff,Corbett dropped a prime Fitz in their fight yet Jeffries had to wear him down.Jeffries never beat a top big man his wins were over smaller older guys except for Ruhlin who quit while standing. Jeffries power and his defence are overated imo. You never saw Jeffries fight yet you think he hit harder than Foreman? Johnson who fought Jeffries ,Fitz and Choynsky thought Jeffries was the least hard hitting of the three in his stated opinion.

 

Im not sure what your beef is ,is it the fact that I said I thought Foreman hit harder than Jeffries?
Who do you know who thinks to the contrary?
I haven,t made a definitive statement ,all Ive done is give my opinion,based on what Ive read ,the footage Ive seen,and the fighters records,can I do anything else? I say Ali outpoints Jeffries pretty convincingly over 15 rds ,your given distance ,if you think otherwise fine.

 

I think Jeff had enough brains to know he has to up the pace. since he fights out of a crouch that seems to be the type that gives Ali problems.