Muhammad Ali vs. Awkward fighters

Perfect - and perhaps just in my view only, I would rate Ken’s chin better than mediocre - took decent shots pretty well - but upon receiving punches an extra notch or two more powerful - poor Kenny came undone.

 

We see this strange concept again - fighter X struggled with awkward fighters.

Does the description itself not inherently suggest it to be natural to encounter difficulties against an “awkward” fighter?

The content defies the tone of the statement. I could say, well, fighter X always struggled with excellent, polished boxers. Go figure.

It was second incarnation and progressively ageing Ali who encountered difficulties vs Norton and Young - and Ali certainly wasn’t Robinson Crusoe in that regard.

Prime Ali sees it through a lot more easily vs Norton and Young.

 

What needs to be said is that Ali had these "struggles" past peak post exile.

By the time of the Norton loss he was 31yo and had 42 fights under his belt already. Even so he dropped 9 pounds and righted that ship next fight.

By the time he fought Jimmy Young he was 34 and had 52 fights under his belt including a grueling trilogy with Joe Frazier, the Foreman Superfight and soooooo many victories over top 10 and top 5 fighters.

Swag produced an article where Eddie Futch stated right after the first Norton fight that Norton would not have been able to beat him closer to the start of post exile let alone pre exile.

So while it's true Ali struggled with Norton and Young context needs to factored in.

The difference between the Ali who lost to Norton and the Ali that lost to Young is sizeable let alone talking pre exile. For that matter it was a significantly improved Ali that beat Norton in fight 2 vs fight 1.

The difference between how a 1967 Ali and the 1976 model that lost to Young is VAST. We didn't see first career Ali struggle with much of anything.

 

Well it doesn't take great imagination to imagine a younger, fresher, faster, fitter Ali in with Norton and Young. Eddie Futch imagined it and he was fully aligned to Norton. If 76 Ali fought Terrell he'd be in the "awkward" bracket as well, no doubt.

Holmes started struggling as well at those career stages. He would have had an easier time against a guy like Williams at his peak.....and Bey and co. Father time slowed them all down.

It's akin to Duran for me. As he aged and went up in weight he struggled against speedier types. It wouldn't have been near the case, P4P, when he was younger.

 

So, the only geometric shape you can make out of all this is the most simple - a 2D triangle? You might want to move into more sophisticated and appropriate 3D shapes. Perhaps, say, a pyramid with Ali sitting atop.

 

Agree with the first 3 picks.

Fury of course, meaning the whole package, would present difficulties but he isn't mopping the floor with Ali at all. I wouldn't place "smart" and "skilled" in the order that you have - as if they would be the chief attributes that would see Fury to potential victory. Size advantage would be the primary attribute that Fury would rely on - and that includes, in no small measure, holding, mauling and lying on his smaller opponent to stifle them and tire them out - which isn't "boxing" in my book - and, being even handed, I don't consider the clutching tactics that Ali employed in Superfight 2 as pure boxing.

Let's see how Fury goes with Usyk - and also observe how much he relies on "non-boxing" tactics to deal with his smaller yet much smarter and better skilled opponent.

Yes, I am Team Usyk. I FEEL.

 

Again, Young wasn't awkward. He had a classic, very fundamentally sound style. That Ali struggled with him wasn't a stylistic issue, I think. It was that Ali was severly declined, in very poor shape and that Young was good. Do anyone here really see any fighter ever that far removed from his best having an easy time with peak Young? I don't.

However, Ali did struggle a bit with quick pressure fighters that fought from a low point of balance, coming from underneath. Jones, Cooper, Frazier and Norton being the main examples here. I hink Ali only was around his very best for one of these fights, Cooper 2, but even in that one you can see that it was a bit of a difficult style for Ali.

Ali had an easier time with tall fighters with a more erect stance. Like Terrell, Bugner and Foreman. Fighters that in size were closer to the HWs of later generations.

As for Frazier and Norton, it should be said that they were nightmare opponent for anyone who couldn't just smash them into the canvas. I don't think any of them was ever outboxed, and they faced a good amount of quality between them. That says something.

 

Ken Norton giving Holmes, Ali, razor thin close fights. Who are rated top 5 Heavyweights of all time by most people. Certainly doesn't make Ken Norton a "club fighter" that's an utterly ridiculous comment. Why didn't other journeyman fighters push Holmes, Ali, to their limit then if it was that easy ? Norton must of had something special about him, to push two ATG Heavyweights to the brink.

Ken Norton was one of the most well conditioned Heavyweights of all time, he could fight at a grueling pace for 15 rounds. He could hit hard with either hand, and his body punching was underrated. His style may of not been textbook, but he made it his own and it worked against alot of fighters.

I don't understand the disrespect for Norton, he was one of the most entertaining Heavyweights of the 70s. Gave us classic fights in the strongest Heavyweight era of all time, and I think its utterly disrespectful to compare Norton to a "club fighter". When he was rated amongst top 5 Heavyweights in the strongest Heavyweight era of all time.

 

Very true.

But Journeyman is just a troll, so nothing to take too seriously. I don't think even he really is that ignorant.