Muhammad Ali vs Gene Tunney

Nobody ever argued that Tunney had a better resume or was a greater champion than Clay. Styles make fights. And Tunney presents a style and proficiency that Ali never saw in his career. Ali himself ranked Tunney in his top 10 HWs and named one of his boulders 'Tunney'.
As far as the guys you mentioned... Tunney beats them all except maybe Liston and possibly Frazier. Kind of ridiculous to think that Patterson or Lyle or Quarry would give him any trouble.

 

I don't think Ellis and Patterson are pickems. Everything else I would expect

 

You reckon Vegas and British oddsmaker would make any version of Tunney a favorite over t

Fair enough. I appreciate your candor.

 

Well Greb went through the best LHWs even though he was a natural 160.
Dick Tiger moved up to 175 and beat Jose Torres at 37 years-old.
Fitzsimmons kayoed Corbett (who was similar to Tunney).
I think that Hagler could have moved up to LHW if he wanted to. Call me crazy but I think he could've gone the distance with Michael Spinks.

 

You don't get picked over anyone on that list when you have no resume in the weight class. That is pure intellectual dishonesty. It's like picking Marvin Hagler to take out Mike Spinks, Qawi and Johnson. Nope.

And while we're at it, for all of Tunney's supposed skills, he is pretty damn basic on film. An in and out arm puncher with decent but not overwhelming quicks, at least compared to his filmed opponents (tho we all know there was a certain type of opponent he really didn't care for) and predictable offense. Basic can work when you have an overriding physical advantage, but Tunney had none of that. Small, slight, not overly powerful. He's basically Henry Maske in all aspects.

And while we're also at it, for all of Tunney's pretentions, he was a dolt. He was his day's equivalent of LeBron James with his no lens glasses perpetually 5 pages into the Autobio of Malcolm X. Get all the smart friends you want, it doesn't change a Hell's Kitchen dunce.

 

OK man fair enough citing these things as evidence, but let us take a more granular look at exactly what the fights might tell us!

Greb was completely amazing.
He did beat bigger men consistently, if not every time-nearly impossible fighting sooo often.
Although I disqualified him from my challenge-about a MW beating a LHW, since he was more like a natural 165, check his box rec peak weights or when he beat anyone you like...

Still do you see him beating the best EVER LHWs? And if he was 160?

DIck Tiger is another guy who did something impressive, bute asy to dismiss as evidence here-because both Torres was not nearly the GOAT LHW, & he *

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*. Like Holyfield likely needed to (& steroids/HGH + superb strategy & getting away with a fair amount of holding, let alone the head butts, even if accidental) to beat Mike Tyson.

Ruby Red beat up bigger men & Corbett-but you likely agree that Corbett was a pioneer, but maybe like a poor man's Gene Tunney?
He did not have the record nor overall skills.
And no way would Fitzy blitz the very biggest & best future HWs...

Sure Hagler could have moved up to LHW.
But even you are more than hedging your bets; acknowledging it may be considered Madness to say he even went the distance with Michael Spinks.
He may well have done so, maybe that MW iron chin holds up.
But you sense it would have been a Bridge too Far to be dominant at LHW like he was at MW...

And anyway the question is how would he have done WITHOUT moving up.
Hagler is a perfect example of a man who would not benefit from moving up.
Already muscular for his height, not big framed, he would add little or nothing (might lose speed & endurance) in absolute terms...
And certainly relative to other LHW have at least less success.

Anywho what guys do fighting naturally bigger stronger men is amazing.
Like Duran at what 37 at MW against a far younger naturally more athletic & larger man...

But size does make a big difference.
Especially for those telying more on Raw Power.

 

I think you are underselling Tunney!
He looks better than just basic to me, & was way ahead of his time.
ALi did not greatly admire him for nothing.
He was not small & slight for LHW, or today would not be small for a rehydrated one-at his HW size.
He just was small compared to modern HWs.
He was also pretty fast.

Now why is it pretentions? His racism is certainly documented, but you reject him as well-read & intelligtent? Why?
I dunno if James is very smart, but an idiot? And much more humanitarian & concerned for others than say M. Jordan...

Now as someone who lives IN the NYC neighborhood for many years, what in tarnation is a "Hell's Kitchen Dunce"?

Are you open to the possibility that while calling some out very fairly on bias, like Tunney likely beating prime Ali...
You may have some bias too?

 

Tunney was not pretentious he was exceptionally intelligent and genuinely curious about the arts, he was great friends with the playwright George Bernard Shaw and I think he was also friendly with the musician Charles Ives (might have been someone else). After boxing he is went on to be a successful business owner and was very highly ranked in the military.
Tunney wasn't the only boxer with artistic inclinations, Jack Johnson was a great fan of the opera and Peter Jackson started in a production of 'Uncle Tom's Cabin's. Not all that uncommon.
The LeBron comparison is outrageous.

 

Greb beat Tunney, Dillon (past prime), T. Gibbons, Loughran, Slattery, Norfolk, Levinsky and McTigue (some of these guys on multiple occasions) I don't think it gets much better than those guys at LHW. There's a reason why even the great Carpentier ran from him. If he could beat those guys he could definitely beat Charles and Foster and Moore
What Tiger did was impressive but it's hard to say that he would have done that in a tougher era of LHWs.
Most of Corbett's fights were unrecorded. And I rate him just as highly as I do Tunney. He was slightly taller and even leaner. Tunney was amazed at how spry he was in his 60s and the fact that he could still spar
Fitz had a hell of a punch so you never know. He really knew where to place his punches too. But the fact that he refused the rematch with Corbett is very damning.
Well when Sinks was the champ (at the same time as Hagler) most of the good LHWs like Conteh and Qawi and Saad Muhammad were gone. So if Hagler managed to get through Spinks (which I think is plausible) I think he could have been successful, probably not dominant.
I'll have to think about your question a little more.
Size does make a difference of course if the fighter knows how to use it.

 

OK you make the best case re: Greb!
Though being over the MW limit is not a trivial thing, it helped...
The best of those bunch are Gibbons &
Yes he beat bigger men who were excellent fighters, some prime right?
Loughran was 90-25-10, & looking it up, Greb was actually averaging marginally HEAVIER than him in their 2 fights!!
Gibbons seems the best of all, but when Greb won only 8.5 lbs. separated them.
Then when he lost twice, they were within one pound & the first time, both at 158!

So you gotta look closer.
As great as Greb was, he had a stylistic advantage of swarmer vs. boxer + their sizes were CLOSE when they fought.
I do not think this shows that Greb is likely to beat a Spinks Moore or Charles at the LHW limit.

Very fair about wondering if Tiger would have done that against btter LHWs-but again he also moved up to LHW.
All the best guys tend to know how to you size.
Just the lost fights by Corbett make me see him as no say Tunney!
Sullivan had endless unrecorded fights but was far more dominant.
He had a stylistic advantage over Fitz-but I never heard about him avoiding anyone.

Anyway the main question is how likely are smaller guys to beat naturally larger ones-assuming of similar pedigree?
Again weigh (& literally lol!) a true MW & LHW limit context, hypothetically.
That difference of 15 lbs., less than 10% is SIGNIFICANT.

I do not see Hagler beating Spinks.
Hagle rhimself knew he was best off where he was, Hearns asked him to vacate so they both could hold titles, Marvin refused!

 

Corbett has perhaps the worst record of any lineal champion.
What is his best win?
One punch kod by a middleweight
Beaten up by the crude Sharkey in a highly suspicious fight.
Involved inanother highly suspicious fight against McCoy

Tunney was pretentious he used to quote from the classics to newspapermen and liked to lecture them on literature.He was always photographed in camp reading a book once it was spotted it was upside down.


Tunney never saw action, his rank was private in WW1 he was later awarded commendations for the series of exhibitions and fights he engaged in during that time becoming the Champion of the AEF
He achieved the rank of Captain in the Navy in WW2 for a fitness programme he supervised..
Tunney married into money, his wife Polly Lauder was an heiress, her money and his purses were the basis of his fortune,he wasn't some high flying business wizz kid.

 

"Most of Corbett's fights were unrecorded."
No they weren't.

Corbett has perhaps the worst record of any lineal heavyweight champion.
What are his best wins?
A 21 rds ko over a 34 years old 4 1/2 years retired, fat ,alcoholic Sullivan.
A stoppage of 165lbs Mitchell who would retire for 2 years afterwards come back for 1 more fight lose that and retire for good.
A 6 rds wins over an undertrained Jake Kilrain in which no infighting was allowed.
A win over Dominick McCaffrey 9-4-3 over 4rds in which the duration of the rounds varied from 1 min 13 secs to 2 min 30secs.
Fitz refused to rematch Corbett because of all the BS and procrastinating from Corbett,who ,as usual, behaved like a real ***** in the build up to the fight.Fitz twice destroyed Sharkey whom Corbett couldn't beat.
Corbett was also involved in 2 extremely suspicious fights.
Corbett ducked a rematch with Jackson , and refused to fight Maher whom Fitz demolished.
There is nothing on Corbett's record that suggests he would do well against later champions.

 

Fitzsimmons got him with a good punch and he was winning the fight handily before then.
Let's not disregard his fights against Sullivan, his 61 round fight with Peter Jackson and also wins against Choynski and Jake Kilrain.
Sharkey was one of the toughest HWs to ever fight.
He also made a lot of money himself from his career as a boxer no?
I don't see how that's pretentious unless an individual is insecure about not knowing that stuff. His interest in literature was not phony.

 

You think beating a washed up fat alcoholic 34 year old who hadn't fought for over four and a half years is laudatory? The only mystery is why it took him so long to win!

He didn't beat Jackson who was suffering from an ankle injury.

Choynski was a 3 fight novice and no heavyweight.
The Kilrain fight was set up as a show case for Corbett .no clinching ,and no inside work allowed,it was also only over 6 rounds and Kilrain was not in the best of shape.

Sharkey was 175 and 177 lbs for those fights ie not a heavyweight.
Corbett's record against heavyweights is 5 fights 2 wins 2 losses and a draw.
I submit that is not the stuff of legend.
I didn't suggest Tunney had no money of his own .I said he had his purses,which combined with his Wife's fortune, made him a very wealthy man but he did not make it in business. Several writers ,including Leibling,Rice, and Runyon called Tunney pretentious.
I never suggested his interest in literature was phony, just that he usually ostentatiously carried a book around with him ,and would quote from it at the drop of a hat,that is pretension as far as I'm concerned.
I read books everyday ,most are considered modern classics such as Hemingway,Steinbeck,Fitzgerald,Waugh,McCarty,Ishiguro,etc but I've never felt the need to carry one around with me,producing it whenever I meet somebody.

 

Most fights were unrecorded at that time as boxing was hardly legal - you could get arrested for attending or participating in a prizefight in many states. Record -keeping was not a priority at that time and it was common for fighters to have more unrecorded fights than recorded.
Fitzsimmons, for example, claimed that most of his fights were unrecorded and that he had closer to 300 fights. You can take that as you wish.
Fitzsimmons ducked Corbett. He was having a long night before he landed that punch.
Fitzsimmons only knocked Sailor Tom out once when he was washed up the other fight was a disqualification in his favor.
Everyone ducked Peter Jackson. Jackson is the most ducked HW in history. At least Corbett got in the ring with him in the first place.