Muhammad ali -vs-jack jhonson!

The style thing comes into play when comparing two fighters who occupy the same echelon. Hart and Ali do not. It's a matter of class. Johnson struggled with guys who would have little business in the heavyweight scene in the 60's and 70's. Ali fought a different class of opponents for most of his career.

Johnson primarily tried to impose his great strength advantage over his usually smaller opponents. I think the notion of Johnson's "great" strength is exaggerated by relative weakness of his competition. Ali, in his prime, was a very large man, 2 to 3 inches taller than Johnson with much better reach. I don't think Johnson will be controlling distance and clinches. Ali was no Tommy Burns, no Jack O'Brien or Stanley Ketchell. He was a very big man who moved like no big man before him.

 

Agreed, but Johnson could bounce on his feet and fight when he wanted to


greatA has a Johnson tribute where you can see him do it for a few seconds in a rare clip. He looks lighter on his feet than Robinson in the clip, no exaggeration

 

Ali wins close decision. 9-6 rds.

 

I can't believe this thread has lasted his long. I agree with Seamus. Johnson did not fight a prime live body on film that would have been a top ten guy in the 60's or 70's at heavyweight. Well, Maybe Willard would be in the top ten during Ali's reign, but Johnson lost that fight.

 

As you do not rate Johnson in your top 10, it is no surprise that you can't see this being particularly competitive, however many do ,and that' s why the discussion is still alive.
[No criticism intended ,we all have our preferences.]
Would you pick Brian London, Zora Folley,Henry Cooper,George Chuvalo,Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell ,Floyd Patterson, Karl MIldenberger to beat a prime Johnson ?
Especially ,at the stage of their careers that Folley,Wiliams,Patterson,London,were?
If we could see Johnson dominating McVey in their last fight and, stopping him late in the 20th rd, toying with Kaufmann,outpointing Jeannette, perhaps our perspective of his ability might be more informed?
I reiterate, I pick Ali, his agility,and handspeed ,give him the edge,and I am not convinced that Johnson would have many opportunities to land effective punches on the back pedalling Ali.
Maybe not an exciting fight ,as both were reluctant to assume the initiative, but possibly an intruiging one.

 

I once thought that Johnson would be no match for Ali due to the available footage we have of Jack but after analyzing the footage more closely I began to reconsider. We never saw Johnson in his best fights against good HW's auch as McVey, Jeannette, Langford et al. All we have are his fights against easy pickings where Jack is toying with his opponents and giving a half assed effort. But even then I began to appreciate the man's skills. Johnson was very quick when he wanted to be and very strong as well. He fought flat footed alot but could spring into action whenever he had to. He also possesed cat like reflexes and had good timing and sense of distance. These abilities would give Ali more trouble than a lot of people might think. I still lean lean toward Ali in this match but it would'nt be a walk in the park.

 

Furthermore, the limited footage of Jeanette (including some recently available) and McVea is, well, less than overwhelming... all of which only reinforces the idea of Johnson's greatness being exaggerated in contrast to the mediocrity of his era.

 

:good
true Jeanette and especially McVea look pathetic to say the least.

 

i thought Jeanette looked pretty good myself.

 

Yes, and when you consider Mcvey was but a teenager when Johnson beat him twice, and 20 for the third time, the win over McVey does not prove much.

The Jeanette on film who fought Langford in Parris was a finished product, light years ahead of the raw novice with a losing record who gave Johnson some hard fights. As Jeanette improved with experience, Johnson had no part of him. Which brings me to Langford, who was new to the heavyweight division, and only 156 pounds when he and Johnson fought.

In addition to being wild overrated though observation of the flims, Johnson appears to have been born at the right time. He defeated not read for prime time greats in Langford, Jeanette, and McVey, and did not have to face prime versions of Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, or Corbett. As far as I can tell the best live bodies in their near prime or prime that Johnson fought were Williard, Burns, Choysnki, and Hart. Can we all agree here? His record vs these four is 1-3.

 

I don't know.. Ali tied up pretty strong guys.. he had underrated strength

 

I think Patterson, and Terell would have a chance at upsetting Johnson, though I would not pick them to beat him. I think Ali himself did not meet great competition in the 1960's, aside from Liston. I also think Ali beat better fighters in the 60's in comparison to Johnson's title run from 1908-1914.

We agree that Ali would win. Where I disagree is Johnson's wins over McVey, Jeanette, or Langford meaning a lot to this conversation. I say this because the Langford that Johnson defeated was new to the heavyweight division, and but 156 pounds. Mcvey was only a teenager in two fights, and 20 in the last match. Essentially an amateur if you will. Jeanette had a losing record when he fought Johnson, and very limited experience.

 

....yeah, that thrusting jab is mindblowing

 

lunging jab while casting the right hand away, in and out in a straight line, screwed up footwork... it's not flattering footage.

 

I did not include Langford ,nor the first two McVey fights,so why did you?
Jeanette fought
Johnson about 7 times ,I don't think there is any doubt who was the master.