Muhammad ali -vs-jack jhonson!

we're onto 6+ combinations nowadays, buddy

 

I am not sure that I would agree with that.

Johnson twice dominated Denver Ed Martin who was a mobile boxer with advantages in both height and reach over him.

On the flip side of the coin, the come forward Marvin Hart, gave him his only loss anywhere close to his prime.

 

I never for a moment thought you would.

Johnson also dominated George Gardner, a mobile crafty boxer .
I was trying to illustrate the type of fighters that suited Johnson and those that he perhaps found more difficult to solve.
I have failed to persuade you.
There's a surprise.


On the flip side many thought Johnson won the fight with Hart handily ,and that Hart got the verdict ,because of his pluck in absorbing punishment .
What are you not sure about ?
Tell me, which styles Johnson did best against ,and which he had the most problems with ?

 

Johnson threw and landed 10 jabs and hooks in less than 4 seconds against Fireman Jim Flynn who had his gloves to his head ala the modern day guard. He then lands about 10 more lefts and rights in the next eight seconds.


I dont think a 6+ combo would impress johnson



And you cant just say his competition was subpar as an excuse, because he handled them none the less.



I think Ali would beat him in the toughest fight of Ali's career, and the toughest possible match up for him in all of fantasy match-ups for Ali. He said it in one of his later interviews: Johnson and Marciano would be my toughest fights. He even gets asked about what it would have been like in front of a large crowd in England. He says a lot of trash talking would have went down lol.


If Johnson were around in Ali's time I think Ali would find himself in a very uneasy spot. Iti s well known that Ali had intimidation issues with Liston. He himself and people around him say Ali was more afraid before fighting Liston than he was Foreman. Well Johnson looked just as intimidating as Liston physically, yet was more upbeat and energetic. If Ali started yelling at Johnson at the weigh in, Johnson would start laughing and smiling and laughing and smiling.


The man who wins rounds before the fights begin, versus the man with probably the toughest skin known to boxing history. (Not including Joe Grim of course )

 

Would this be a fight,,,,,,,,or a pose-n-show theatrical act.

Maybe the worst match-up of 'two' All-Time Greats,,,,,,,ever..!!!

 

The press conference would be must see tv. In the ring, they fight with gloves, not words. Johnson would get soundly beaten. Ali was too fast and accurate as an out fighter, and was not a man to be out thought or out clinched in the ring.

 

Ali dances and dances , jabs and jabs . IF Jack manages to catch him whats he going to do he couldnt wrestle Ali around?

 

Gardner was small and did not hit hard. You can't compare him to Ali! Hart won. Stop the excuses. Johnson didn't want to trade with him and was out worked from rounds 10-20.

Johnson's real problem in this match up is his lack of reach. At 74", he can not outfight, or out jab Ali. No way. Ali was quicker, and had elite level movement skills. capable of throwing punches and landing them while moving backward. As I said before on film, Moran, who was your average white hope type, actually was the better in several rounds from a distance.

To beat Ali you have to have some power, and force the fight by throwing a lot of punches. This was never Johnson's style

 

It generally accepted that Johnson was comfortably in front after the first 10rds , ,and Hart came on after the 11th rd, as it was a 20rd fight I think Johnson may have won , unless my maths are wrong.

Where did I compare Gardner to Ali?
I simply stated that Johnson did better against come forward types as a rule .
In your rabid rush to attack Johnson at every turn ,you jump into the **** without looking where you are putting your big feet.

You pick the Moran fight to evaluate Johnson,thats interesting.
Johnson was 35 years old and ,according to you, 30lbs over his best weight.
Do you similarly assess Ali's capabilities ,ie judge him on his fight with Jimmy Young?

Moran was clearly beaten by Johnson landing only ONE hard blow,[to the neck],after which Johnson stood back and theactrically applauded him ,its on film for all to see,well those that have their eyes open.

You have a habit of replying to my responses to Janitor,should we both save time, and let you reply on our behalf? atsch

 

Why don't you be honest about things here?
You are a manic Johnson hater, just as Alex Voce is an Ali hater. As such, your contribution to this ,[and any other thread concerning Johnson ], must be viewed and judged accordingly, and given the gravitas it deserves.

 

In some ways, Johnson seems to have matched up well and badly, with many of the same types of figfhters as Muhamad Ali!

I think that there was an issue with smal pressure fighters. Despite the controvesy surrounding the Hart fight, many papers thought Hart deserved the decision. It was too close to call. I also think that on closer examination, Sam Langford gave Johnson a lot more trouble than he is usualy credited with doing.

I think that smal slick boxers could pose Johnson with some problems, albeit not as much as pressure fighters. Jeanette was able to give him some frustrating moments in their first fight and O'Brien was able to give him some problems albeit over six rounds.

Johnson seems to have done particularly well against heavyweights his own size or bigger who tried to fight him at range. Denvewr Ed Martin, Sam McVea and Sandy Ferguson and Al Kaufman were all handeled prety easily and for the most part one sidedly.

 

Can anyone see these two in a toe-to-toe exchange,,,,,,,,,,,,,,NO

Nothing more than a few jabs, clinches, Jack leaning back on his right foot.

And Muhammad dancing and moving.

Typical round,,,,,,,Ali throws '3' jabs,,,,,,,,Johnson leans back.

After the fight, they both go out,,,,,,,, and share,,,, apple pie and ice cream.

 

Johnson was in shape enough to go 20. Yes, he was past his best, but Moran was not very good. Stop watching selected clips from Unforgivable Blackness, and buy the film, which I have. Then you and I can talk, and get down to business. Johnson vs. Moran is out there. It includes almost all the rounds. Anyone can look good on a highlight clip. As I said, Moran who was moderately skilled landed more on the outside.

Fine, chalk Johnson up as old vs. Moran if you need an excuse. What is your excuse for a prime Jack Johnson being out boxed ( not out slugged ) by a past his best 160 pound Jack O'Brien in a 6 round match???!!!

Sounds like someone had defensive issues with skilled / speedy fighters due to a low guard, low punch out put, and somewhat stationary stance and style. Ali owns Johnson. Mis-match.

If you want to use another fight, Johnson lost to Griffin, and drew twice. Griffin was past his best, but was a solid boxer. Interesting results, eh?

 

I could say what you say on Johnson matters not, because you have tunnel vision and earplugs in these type of conversations.

It matter not who you or I root for. Let's discuss the facts, and let the boxing rule. If you have to try to diminish someone due to their own preferences instead of coming back with a well thought out counter argument, the game is pretty much over.

Do you think Johnson had trouble with good movers and jabbers or not?

 

I posted that that was the style that he had more difficulty with, did I not?
There again, show me a fighter who does not have problems with good movers and jabbers?
Sullivan,Fitz ,Jeffries,Langford, Dempsey,Scmeling,Louis,Marciano,Liston,Frazier, Foreman, Tyson all,fit into this categrory, it isn't an elite one.atsch
I have seen all the film that survives of the Moran Johnson fight,saying that Johnson was in shape to go 20rds, instead of conceding he was 30lbs over weight ,and 35 years old is silly.Johnson went 26 rds with Willard but he was far from prime, he was down the hill, and half way up the other side.

I sent you a link which detailed the round by round Johnson Jeffries fight you eagerly seized on that because it appeared to support your views,also in that link was a detailed analysis of the OBrien fight which stated Johnson won clearly, I see you are selective about what you remember.

In case you missed it ,I picked Ali to outpoint Johnson.
When you can debate objectively, there may be some profit in engaging with you, until then I think it is a rather negative exercise.