Muhammad Ali Vs. Lennox Lewis

No, because that's all BS. When Ali had to post-pone the second Liston fight because of injury people use that as an excuse for Liston not being in shape, focussed etc. In this case it's the other way around all of a sudden? Thing is, Ali was climbing the walls the last couple of weeks. He really wanted to go back to the US, he had had it with Zaire. And it was of course very tough for him to refocus and stay in shape as well.

As for the conditions during the fight, Ali's gameplan was to move, Foreman's was to corner Ali. Guess whose gameplan was favoured by the small ring, heat, humidty and the slow, soggy canvas.

As for the psychological aspect: sure, the crowd was on Ali's side against Foreman, but Ali had a lot of people in his vicinity who not only thought it as a given that he would lose but that Foreman might seriously hurt him. The mood in his dressing room before the fight was that of a funeral. His own guys feared for his well-being! Imagine going out from that to perhaps the biggest challenge in your life. I'd swap the supportive crowd for the confidence in Foreman's camp every day of the week if I'd been Ali.

So please don't give me this nonsense about things being in Ali's favour. And the crap about the food, the water etc. - that's just buying into Foreman's own pathetic excuses.

 

Well I do think some of those points are valid, particularly the ropes as far as Foreman is concerned. As for Liston he was simply old.

But I do agree with your bottom line, namely that excusses are for those who lost, and Ali won both fights and deserves full credit.

 

Well it was Foreman's fault really that he was cooped up in his hotel and didn't put the necessary roadwork in after he was cut in sparring.
The "Ali Bomaye!!!" chant must have really got to him.....

The best excuse was about the loose ropes.I've seen Ali's trainer Dundee himself say that he spent quite a bit of time before the fight trying to tighten and remove the slack out of the ropes,though I think Norman Mailer in his book "The Fight" about the Rumble in the Jungle implied that he was trying to loosen them.

If you read Thomas Hauser's Ali biography, apparently Angelo Dundee tried to do something very similar before the first Frazier fight.David Wolff the publicist for the fight noticed it and told Yank Durham to check the ropes,without telling him what Dundee had done.Durham checked and was absolutely furious about the slackness of the ropes and had them tightened.

Oh well I guess with Foreman's lack of roadwork he wouldn't have the lower body conditioning to throw his balanced right-hook to Ali 's body for more than a couple of rounds and ,with Ali leaning out of the ropes, he wouldn't be able to catch him with his right uppercut.

Under the circumstances,I guess it was a testimony to Foreman's own limited firepower and deficient body-attack than any of his excuses that won the day for Ali.

 

We part ways on this one in agreement -Bowe and Golota were exceptionally skilled. I remember watching Golota outclass Bowe and sat their with my fist in my mouth. His issues were a damn shame because I'd have loved to have seen what he would have done without them to anyone. The guy was another near-perfect HW speciman.... although those pimples all over his back made me wonder.

 

I tend to agree with your insinuation more than Bokaj's dissent. Foreman was in a hostile country. King was Ali's man, and I wouldn't trust the government in Zaire for a damn thing had I been Foreman or his corner. Forget the American press. Ali had a nation behind him and although Foreman may tend to distort things, he may have had a point underneath his claims.

No matter, Foreman trained like a dunce, but all told, I think that this fight is the best example of the sheer genius of Ali -he beat Foreman with psychology more than pugilism. He got into his head and used a high-risk strategy that accentuated Foreman's insecurities. Had Ali tried stuck to his original plan, it could well have been a different fight. Fighting Foreman was like fighting a locomotive for the first few rounds and I'm not convinced that Foreman couldn't have cut that ring off and done alot of damage. I think that Ali knew this.

 

Foreman, to this day, still believes he was poisoned in Zaire.

 

Wasnt talking about overall as a fighter. Was referring to that clip where hes just slipping the hell out of the shots with subtle movement. I said He looks like him THERE

 

I, to this day, still believes Foremans is as full of **** as anybody alive.:yep

 

King wasn't Ali's man back then. Whoever was champion was his man, 'cause that's where the money was at, and at that time it was Foreman, and most thought it would remain so for a long time. I also don't think Zaire's government had any stake in any particular fighter.

It really annoys me that Foreman's buffet of patchetic excuses (the injury, the food, the ropes, the water etc etc.) actually has won some credence.

I understand that Ali as an icon gets extra critical scrutiny, but this together with all the excuses for Liston's losses... Where the post-ponement for the Ali-Liston II is believed to work against Liston, a smiliar post-ponement before Foreman-Ali works in Ali's favour. A big thing is made out of the hostility Foreman faced in Zaire, even though it's nothing compared to what Ali faced in the US during several years. And so on, and so on...

 

Me again!

Just wanted to throw in a switch-scenario: The crowd in Zaire is fanatically behind Foreman, but his camp is anything but confident. Many around him secretly believe he's not only going to lose, but get badly hurt doing some. Some old allies has gone on record saying just that.

Shortly before the fight he gets a letter from his old trainer, a man whose opinion on boxing he deeply respects, saying that's he hasn't got what it takes anymore and that he will get hurt. The people around Ali on the other hand is full of confidence, as is Ali -coming off a couple of hugely impressive wins.

The ring and the ropes is the same as in Madison Square Garden, and the heat and humidity is at normal levels. Who wins?

 

Foreman was crap against Ali.
If that was the only film existing of George Foreman we'd all agree he was a skill-deficient, stamina-less, crude, sloppy brawler with no ring smarts and lousy durability.

I think Ali fought great and scored a superb victory against the odds, but Foreman was awful to the point where you have to say, either 1. He was incredibly overrated, or 2. He was fighting way below his ability. or 3. A bit of both.

 

I just think Ali often made opponents look bad. He made very good fighters like Liston and Quarry look decidedly silly, almost amateurish at times. Ellis looked like he hadn't graduated from being Ali's sparring partner when they met. And these were all superior technicians to Foreman.

If Ali-Liston I or Ali-Quarry II was the only footage of Liston and Quarry, how would you feel about them?

 

I think that fight was closer than some may remember it.

Yes Ali won, and yes Foreman punched himself out and didn't pace himself as well as he coulld have.

But those bodypunches were devasting, to the point that I think very few fighters would have withstood them and they did indeed hurt Ali, he said as much after the fight.

So this wasn't a case of Ali outboxing Foreman at all, although he tended to flurry near the end of the rounds.

Rather it was a case of Ali staying on the ropes and being able to absorb Foreman's best shots. So this wasn't a boxing clinic as some seemed to have suggested, it was more of a display of mental fortitude, combined with an intend in Ali's mind to do exactly what happened, which was to get Foreman to punch himself out.

The major point being is those loose ropes may have done two things. One is allowed Ali to move his head back just enough to avoid headshots, or at least lessen the impact and two to allow Ali absorb those bodyshots a little better than might otherwise have been the case. Meaning that it actually assisted him in his strategy.

Having said that, I'm not trying to discredit Ali's win, just stating that I think the ropes influenced him winning to some degree.

 

Ali stopped all the punchers with power and bulk when he was in his prime. I like Ali to out box and outspeed Lewis ,his vast edge in mobility is the key for me a clear decision ,around 8 to 4 rds.The older Ali would have his work cut out and would have to lay traps for Lennox ,which he may not go for ,that would be a nearly even fight I feel.

 

I've seen almost all the Whitaker footage there is to see and, apart from using reflexes to avoid punches, I don't see much similarity. You'd never see Whitaker try to slip punches in such a way, where he would be unable to fire back counters and be so squared up in general. Very few heavyweights in history have been able to slip punches like Whitaker for an entire sequence; even for a smaller boxer it's close to impossible to pull off.