It was Ali who held the door open for King. (Lloyd Price introduced the two.) And I am not so sure that officials in Zaire's government weren't squarely in Ali's corner --his black nationalism reflected their own agenda and his charismatic power was nothing small. Soldiers did in fact come and confiscate Foreman's passport and put him under watch to make sure that he didn't leave the country before the fight. I'm just not so sure about the circumstances surrounding the whole thing. Foreman had a right to sense hostility... every right. Figuratively speaking, the chants of "Ali bombaye" began earlier than the bout. Dismissal of it all is unsupportable. We have to consider context. I'd argue that gullible acceptance of every excuse is just as naive as cynical dismissal of potential explanations.
Agreed. There was talk that someone, either Dundee or an agent for Dundee was seen loosening the ropes and I believe that this was a problem in another fight as well. I'll have to check for details. Ali conned not only Foreman -he conned the press too. You can see him on film before the fight talking about dancing, dancing, sticking and moving, and he did not have any intention of doing that. The sparring sessions bear this out -Holmes was thought to be dominating Ali who, reports said, looked "lethargic"... as was Roy Williams. What Ali was doing was absorbing shots to condition himself to accept pain.
That was after he becamee champ. Of course the didn't want him leaving the country, because then they would lose the fight. And as for the hostility... nothing at all compared to what Johnson and (young) Ali faced or what Schemling faced in the rematch against Louis. No, it really isn't. Because there's no solid proof whatsoever for anything fishy going on. And we´re talking about enormously famous and exposed events. The KO of Liston was a fix because he looked a bit artificial rolling over on the canvas. The Foreman fight was fishy because Foreman (a man who constantly changes statements and who met Jesus in a shower) says so. A big thing is made out of loose ropes in a ring that was amateurishly constructed from beginning to end. But, of course, the moon landing was a fake because the flag didn't look right in some way... Listo
Still haven't got any answers on this switch-scenario: The crowd in Zaire is fanatically behind Foreman, but his camp is anything but confident. Many around him secretly believe he's not only going to lose, but get badly hurt doing some. Some old allies has gone on record saying just that. Shortly before the fight he gets a letter from his old trainer, a man whose opinion on boxing he deeply respects, saying that's he hasn't got what it takes anymore and that he will get hurt. The people around Ali on the other hand is full of confidence, as is Ali -coming off a couple of hugely impressive wins. The ring and the ropes is the same as in Madison Square Garden, and the heat and humidity is at normal levels. Who wins?
Price contacted Ali on behalf of King to box in a benefit in Cleveland after Frazier I. Ali did. That was King's introduction into the boxing game. Who's comparing? Foreman felt himself in a hostile situation and he wasn't full of it for believing so. I wouldn't be at all comfortable with soldiers confiscating my passport had I been in Foreman's position -would you? Neither Ali, nor Schmeling, nor Foreman had anything resembling the hostility that Johnson faced. But your dismissal of Foreman's situation suggests something else. There is really "solid proof" of anything and that is why circumstantial evidence is still considered evidence. One must look at an event or situation in toto and with an open mind and then look at probability. I'm no fan of Oliver Stone and his penchant for seeing conspiracy under every rock, but you appear to be at the other extreme. You consider nothing but concrete evidence and that is just as unreasonable for different reasons. That Liston KO has far more questions than a bad acting job. No one who knows much about Liston, his career, his management, his connections, their connections, and the circumstances surrounding that fight would so dismiss it so casually. It seems that your unwillingness to look past your own disdain for Foreman is preventing you from fully considering that fight. For the record, I don't necessarily believe that there was a fix or anything necessarily shady about that, but can see how Foreman might. Again, there's no conspiracy theorist on this end. Just an open mind.
I've already clearly stated that Ali did a psyche job on Foreman and it was masterful. Put it this way, had Ali opted to stick and move, I'm not at all sure that Foreman wouldn't have got to him due to his comparable height, size, and that aggression and overwhelming offense. Hatton demonstrated just last night that the way you deal with fluttery guys who's power is in question is to go right at them and throw hard, but controlled shots. I've always had the sneaking suspicion that Ali got a bit lucky that Foreman played Mickey the Dunce that night. Had he laid back and picked his shots while Ali was out of position to punch (which was most of the fight), and those ropes were not so loose, who knows...
Just a quick note on the ropes. Dundee claimed he actually tightened the ropes slightly. He said when he went down to the ring with a camp member on the afternoon of the fight, he tightened them a little, and Dick Saddler and someone else was also around at the time. Dundee also said that the bouts before Ali-Foreman and the humidity made the ropes lose.
It seems to me, Bokaj, that you believe Ali would prevail under any circumstances at the time because of his mental fortitude whereas Foreman would find a way to fold once in a fight. I think Foreman went into crisis because he realized his precious power was not invincible. His world was turned upside down in that African ring. He couldn't obliterate his stationary target and was knocked out by a feather-fisted blabbermouth. Thankfully, he found God in San Juan and, after a long time, found it within to reinvent himself into a loved public character, all he ever really wanted. As for the ropes, publicity agent Bobby Goodman is on record saying he and Dundee actually spent the hot afternoon before the 4 am fight tightening the ropes through the turnbuckles. True to Zairian form, the new ring had been put together sloppily and much too early to prevent the heat and humidity from making the flooring soft and mushy and the ropes stretchy. By fight time, the ropes had again become terribly loose. Everyone, including Ali, expected Ali to more or less dance to victory. But thanks to his versatility, Ali had a Plan B which he began to implement in Round 2, to immortal success. Yes, Foreman turned out to be awfully clumsy and inaccurate with his man on the ropes; yes, Ali turned out to have an abdomen of steel, and a jaw of granite to absorb the few head blows; yes, it turned out Ali could counter effectively off the ropes with his feet square; yes, Foreman, who did not train for distance, turned out to have abysmal endurance. But this is all in hindsight. As Napoleon Hill says, success requires no explanations; failure permits no alibis. I believe Ali an expert boxer and in no small measure because of this fight. How many other men could whip Foreman fighting at such a dangerous position? Ali had many resources to call on, perhaps not always textbook, but as a champion he had a way to slay his monsters.
I'm not either, but that is a different matter from removing the merest possibility that he had either a point or good reason for suspicion. I know a few people who have been to some of the African nations. It isn't exactly utopia. Sure, but Foreman himself was not all that confident. Ali believed he had not a glass jaw, but a "glass mind". Many are convinced that the debaucle in Maine is the best and clearest example of all that shadiness.
Yeah, perhaps. On the other hand, Norton was about the same size as Foreman. He wasn't as powerful or quite as agressive, but he was more skilled and a more clever and skilled stalker. He was also more patient and had much better stamina. Norton only caught up with Ali after about 5 rounds in their second meeting (when Ali's shape and condition was comparable to that in Zaire). When he did he was very succesful in making it count, but the question is if Foreman would be. Personally, I think his stamina, skill and patience would let him down here. But it's all speculation...
Much of Ali's success was his own genius. However he also seemed to be a child of destiny. Never mind that part of his strategy that relied on luck against Foreman, it's more than that... who in the 60s would have predicted that the race-baiting and controversial pawn of Elijah Muhammad would become an American Saint in his middle age...?
Sure is. Norton, you may agree, was a stylistic problem for the 70s version of Ali -the version that usually had legs only for half the fight. I don't think he'd pose much of a threat to the 60s version -Futch or no Futch. You? Ali's chin, resilience, and will prevent me from favoring Foreman, who wasn't a one-punch KO artist... but Foreman could have caused far more problems had circumstances been different and perhaps had he not been so stupid in training for power in lieu of stamina. I'd have been very curious to see a rematch at Madison Square Garden.
Yeah, there is something weirdly fairy tale about the Ali story. I'm not religious, but you almost get the feeling that some higher being was writing the script in his most famous fights. The events were that fantastic.
Liston I, Foreman, Frazier III... these were more than great victories, they were sublime. I happen to be religious, and would offer the opinion that the beatification of Muhammad Ali the man by the left wing and the American media (which is generally understood to be of the same cloth) is ...undeserved.