Muhammad Ali vs Lennox Lewis

I don't disagree with any of that just that Kenny, Joe, and Henry are poor analogues for Lennox.

 

As were Vander and Mercer.

 

I didn't invoke them. I might rewatch those matches tomorrow. I like Lennox's fights, especially his one with Tommy Morrison and Mike Tyson though the latter was a ghost.

 

[

Lennox doesn’t need to do either of those things to get similar openings, Lyle found him plenty an amateur relatively speaking with these guys, it wasn’t as if Muhammad was any smarter as a slightly younger man - Mac Foster and Oscar Bonavena who aren’t stand ins but examples of the class who can find him HIT Ali hard and often and they with all respect to the two men aren’t spectacular. Lennox will keep Ali long where he likes to be and make him pay for it.

 

You might say that of Terrell post Ali perhaps, but not leading up to it. He showed good grit in winning a close decision over Williams, a man who had KO'd him earlier, and had had the best run at HW next to Ali when they faced off. He was a deserving top challenger.

He had nothing remotely like the power and killer instincts of Lennox, of course, and can't be compared to him in overall quality, but pre Ali he was a proven top contender. And he sure didn't look happy to be there when he faced him.

Bugner, on the other hand, never really beat no one of note, so that's different. You might take something from that Ali dealt well with his long, fast jab, as he did with Terrell's, but he was no more than an average contender.

 

Two days before his 19th birthday, Joe Bugner beat a German opponent on points and the poor guy died from his injuries a few days later. Up to that point, 12 of Bugner's 14 wins had come early. He was never the same after that tragedy. Maybe he was "just glad to be here" when he went the distance with Ali and Frazier - something no one else managed. Killing an opponent often has that effect on boxers.

 

Holy is a decent one, if one thinks it's worth the effort trying at all (which one probably shouldn't). As is Byrd, who Lewis ducked.

 

Which Liston was this, the one from 1964 with a severe injury to his jabbing arm that it's claimed he had? Hardly the best reference.

Also every time Shavers landed a big right he basically won the round. People act like Ali just ate it and fired back, ala Hagler. He was hurt numerous times by it and saw the rounds out by, mostly, playing possum. Lewis right is coming down from a much higher vantage point and Ali would be on his bike every time it landed.

 

I know this...looks like Joe completely forgot about Ulric Regis the night he fought Richard Dunn then?

 

It's not that Lennox had a style like Norton, it's more a case of the tactic of when Ali jabs, you jab (which worked against Lennox too). Ali's jabbing with his right hand out to the side made him vulnerable to the counter jab and his tactic of circling to the left would see him walk on to a few big right hands...whoosh! And I know whose Jab i'd rather eat out of those two...Ali's may land a bit more but it lacks Lewis' power, so much that during the Mildenberger fight, the German press nicknamed him "Herr Flick".

And his 'lean on the neck and press down" on his opponent' strategy, that was commonplace in the mid-70s but actually started with Cooper and Mildenberger- wouldn't be a factor with someone the size of Lewis. Lennox would love some in-close grappling, any excuse to rip that uppercut.

Like the commentator says in the Jones fight- "you just saw one of Clay's habits pulling way from punches instead of trying to slip them...this may cause him trouble". Right on cue- Jones lands the big right hand, Clay's goes all spaghetti legs and the ropes save him from a knockdown. This scenario would happen a few times had he met Lennox on their best nights. Maybe Jones isn't a good reference for Lewis- but not one of Ali's prime opponents is...certainly not Earnie Terrell. I actually give the heavier, better punch resistance version of Ali from the mid-70s more chance vs Lewis, personally.

 

Do you look at that fight and feel that Liston's left is severly injured?

 

I'd hope you would know my answer to that mate.

 

Very good. The criticism of Terrell and, especially Bugner, is more aimed at their true desire to win the big ones, not compete. Therein lies the difference. This was aimed at Joe throughout his career. No one doubted he was a tough lad, but to really go for it against the top fighters? He went into his shell way too often...he didn't vs Richard Dunn of course, as he knew he could steamroll him in no time.

 

I'm definitely with you concerning Bugner here, but Terrell had showed a good competitive spirit until Ali. In the rematch against Williams he showed just what you want to see in a fighter mentally - he got hurt by a someone who had previously KO'd him but toughed it out to get a very close decision (that could have gone the other way tbf).

As far as I know, he can't be accused of bottling it pre Ali, which was something that Bugner could be accused of on the other hand.

But, of course, anyone who thinks that an Ali-Lewis fight would unfold similar to Ali-Terrell needs to check himself post haste.

 

Only the pros of 60s Ali exist all the cons don’t matter to 70s Ali because he grew a second more powerful chin. Cooper don’t, none of them.