Muhammad Ali vs Punchers.

I agree, I only have Robinson ahead of Ali p4p & thats because Robinson should be no1 p4p on every fans list instead of this Langford & Greb nonsense I keep seeing.

 

:-(

 

Imo this has nothing to do with ranking someone p4p if this is one of your criterias you certainly have a point.

 

Though the logic behind including it when considering where HW boxers rate on p4p lists does make sense due to the increased reliance on power relative to the lower divisions.

 

The only reason I can see for keeping Ali out of the top 10 p4p is if you don't feel HWs have a place there, period. Otherwise he doesn't look bad for the top 5 IMO, since no one has really dominated his own division more than Ali did. And he fought opponents in the range from 180 to somewhere like 255 lbs, and himself weighed between 190 and 230 lbs doing it.

It depends so much how you measure it, though. SRR was a 6 time champion at two weight classes in total and had an unbelievable streak of 90+ wins, but he didn't face guys like Charley Burley and didn't have that many succesfull defenses, unlike Ali who faced all the best of his era and defended a lot (22-3 in his title fights).

And of course if you rather compare how they look on film, their skills and such, it gets even more subjective. So this is a tough one. But anyone who has Ali outside the top 10 has some explaining to do IMO.

 

Well, there were plenty more dominant champs in the past, Wilde, B. Leonard, Louis, Pep, Monzon and some more.

 

Very good post. I would not call Bonevena a big puncher or Folley a good puncher, but your points here are solid.

A top speedy boxer with skills and a top chin usually beats punchers. Its the swarmers and other boxers that give him trouble.

Maybe Holmes fought as many good punchers as Ali did. It is close. Holmes fought: Shavers2x, Cooney, Smith, Witherpsoon, Weaver, McCall, Holyfield, Mercer, Tyson, Snipes, Norton, and R. Williams

 

Greb and Langford blow Robinson away.

 

I don't agree. Certainly not about anyone who fought when the colour line was still in place. And that only started to really dissipate in the decades after WWII.

Ali beat everyone there was to beat during two decades, one of which is widely regarded as one of the most competitive eras in HW history. And this even though he was forced into a 3,5 year inactivity. How do you get much more dominant than that?

 

Ali himself said there are not good eras or bad eras but they are all the same. So, this argument holds not that much water. The 70s vere good but tend to get overrated due to Ali fighting in it. Most fighters he faced are only a name because they fought him.

Yeah Ali, was a great and dominant champ but he got beaten. How can you be the most dominant champ if you get beaten :huh

 

While I think Ali was one of the greatest fighters ever, I don't see him as the greatest boxing historian... Most think that some eras were better than others and many see the 70's as one of the best in HW history. But that's very much a matter of opinion.

1. I didn't say he was the most dominant, but that I don't see anyone that was necissarily more dominant. That would make him among the most dominant.

2. Very few fighters have not been beaten. Do you mean that Duran wasn't dominant at LW or Louis at HW just because they were beaten? :huh

 

Louis was more dominant than Ali. He never lost his title once he had it.
Duran did not lose his title but lost in a non-title bout during his reing that´s why he one of the dominant champs in the sport but not the most dominant. To me Monzon is the most dominant champ ever. He beat top class opposition, never lost during his reign and even beat his heir in his last two fights.
Right you didn´t say hw as the most dominant but you critizised me when I mentioned more dominant champs and so it´s clear that you think he was more dominant than him.

 

When I say dominant, I mean during the course of their career. Not only as champs, even if that is important.

But no, I don't think that Ali necissarily was more dominant than Louis, Duran, Monzon etc. It very much depends on how you see it. Louis, for example, had a better record when it comes to title fights, as you point out. But he was also beaten when arguably nearer his prime than Ali, and most would say that he never beat any fighter as good as Liston, Frazier or Foreman. So it really depends on your own interpretation.


But I think you would be hard pressed to name 10 fighters that were more dominant and beat better opposition than Ali. So to have him outside the top 10 only seems reasonable to me if you give HWs a shorter thrift in p4p rankings. If that's reasonable or not is another question.