muhammad Ali vs Rocky Marciano 15 rounds

The height isn't that relevant, he was still at a height and reach disadvantage against Ali and had to find success in the phonebooth. You can't out jab or outbox Ali, you have to pin him down and rough him up.

That doesn't surprise me, alot of fighters with strong left hands like that turn out to be natural southpaws converted. And many lefties are ambidextorus to varying degress, they have to be to function in a right handed society.

 

ali and not close

 

Just like Berbick did! If Trevor can do it, The Rock can do it in the twice the fashion.

 

My point is they have nothing either physically ,or stylistically in commom with either. You can't cover up a fatuous ,and inaccurate observation with condescension. :nono

 

You are correct.

 

Marciano 5'11 185-188 lbs
Jones 6'0 188 lbs
Cooper 6'1 185 lbs

They are the same weight with only 1-2 inches difference in height. If that is not similar physically, I don't know what is. Marciano's reported wingspan will always be unique among heavies though Cooper and Jones might as well have been at a 10 inch wingspan advantage agianst Clay.

Stylistically Rocky is also unique, Frazier isn't even similar. Cooper and Jones aren't even similar to each other, but all these guys were smaller fighters who pressed Ali and are likely going to be a more realistic guage for Marciano's chances than Sonny Liston. Why you are having a hard time grasping that I can't really say.

Look at Norton and Frazier's success against Ali, yet if we are going by your standards they were physically and stylistically just as much if not more different than Marciano and Jones. Analogies are never perfect and certainly aren't an exact science but its something to go on. I see more of a point in this topic in discussing the Jones fight than the damn Liston fight.

 

What exactly is the point of this sarcastic extreme hyperbole? Do you even know what you are trying to say?

 

The point is that people are using the Jones and Cooper fights, when Clay was green as fresh shoots, to support some weakness in his game. They might as well use the Berbick fight to do the same.

Unless otherwise stated, it is assumed these H2H matches are prime versus prime.

I hope this makes my comments more digestible.

 

That's an absurd exaggeration. These are the two fights directly leading up to his title win over Liston. He was far closer to his prime in these fights than when he was on his second or third comeback and suffering from the early stages of Parks.

You are proposing that the peaking Ali of the Jones fight and the sad broken down Ali of the Berbick fight are interchangable, and worse, trying to be a smartass about it. Get outta here.

 

Not entirely absurd. And Clay was nowhere near peak for Liston I. He was skittish and green, but what he already had (speed, spastic tho effective footwork and more power than given credit for), and what we discovered he had (amazing heart and determination) created a perfect foil for a suddenly aged Liston. Clay, then Ali, peaked a couple years later, or would have a good 5 years later had his career progressed normally.


The Ali of the Berbick fight was still effective in spurts, better than the version from the Holmes fight. I've seen plenty of old, broken down fighters who still had the craft and guile to be effective.

On the other hand, where are the folks bringing up the Lowry and first Lastarza fights to analyze Marciano?

 

Marciano was 5'.10.5"
Cooper was 6'1.5"
That's a 3 inch difference in heights Cooper was tall and slender, Marciano was short and stocky.
Cooper fought in the traditional upright English style, left hand slightly extended ready to jab, right covering his jaw.
Cooper rarely threw his right, he was essentially a one handed left jab, left hook boxer.

Cooper was happy to box at long range piling up points with his jab,and hooking off it when he saw the opportunity.

Marciano fought in a crouch, leaning slightly to his right, his right hand by the left side of his face to parry punches. Marciano looked to get into range so his 69" reach would not be disadvantaged, he was a hooker with his left, and his money shot was his right cross Suzie Q

The only similarity between them is they both had two arms and legs .

Sorry but you are spouting nonsense!

 

Ali looked pretty great in 1970 against Frazier, and the same openings Jones and Cooper foreshadowed came into play again.

Well, Marciano's struggles with Walcott and Charles certianly should be considered. LaStarza had success in the rematch as well with his movement and uppercut.

 

Henry Cooper, in his autobiography noted that Ali was a much improved fighter in their second fight ,and that he had picked up a few tricks , especially on the inside .
Your assessment is correct.

 

Since you were pedantic about the wording of an earlier post.
Ali fought Frazier in March 1971, well at least that's what the framed poster says on my landing.

 

The only nonsense is the words you are putting in my mouth so you can argue a point I'm not trying to make. I've explalned this more times than w arrented.